Homeschooling?

[Weston]

Anyone know anything about it?

Done it before or know anyone that has?

Thanks,
Mike

[GoatBeard]

I may be wrong, but I think the requirements vary from state to state. I think either one or both parents have to have a BA or BS in something (don't think it matters what).

I know one couple who does it. They have 2 little boys who are VERY smart. They have playgroups and study groups and are involved in stuff like 4-H and Cub Scouts. I think they try to get their kids involved with stuff so they will be around other kids, which makes a lot of sense (hell, many of us are trying to do this now and our kids aren't in school, yet).

This particular couple own their own business (they grow flowers on a huge scale and distribute all over the country) so both parents are at home a lot each day. They lived on the farm next to me (I actually sold my farm & house to them before I moved here). Their house was a total disaster -- I don't know if that is because they have no time to clean, don't make their kids clean, have never moved forward from college life or if it's because they are nasty people with 2 young boys runnin' a-muck on a dirty, muddy farm? *shrug*

Personally, I think it's a better idea than any government school. We are considering either that or a private school. Even though where I live (and the schools my youngin's would attend) are ranked 2nd in the state, the school system in AL is a joke. Actually, the entire governmental system in AL is a joke. For that matter, AL is the a**hole of the earth. Heh. :wink:

[Weston]

I'll have to look into the requirements here in NC... wife has two BAs and I have none. I really have nothing against the public school system. Just thinking about it because of the one on one attention I can give my son. So many schools tout how low their student to teacher ratios are... well one on one is pretty good...lol. Of course, I might not be qualified to teach my child and I'll have to really think about that before even considering homeschooling.

Anyways... sorry about the AL A$$hole thing... that really "stinks"

[mnsahd]

I found a lot of information about North Carolina Homeschooling requirements here:

http://www.ncdnpe.org/

Good luck.

[Weston]

I found a lot of information about North Carolina Homeschooling requirements here:

http://www.ncdnpe.org/

Good luck.

Thanks! I'll check it out

[Don-Dad]

I think A member or 2 here homeschool, I think Rem was thinking about it but cannot remember :???:

My son is just finishing up kindergarden and think his school is fantastic. Most of the schools in upstate ny are pretty good, except for the ones in the major cities like NYC, buffalo, rochester, syracuse and albany.

I try to work with him some at home as well but he is reading and they teach a funky way or writing. Everything seems to have little tails. I guess this gets them ready for cursive. His teacher says he is already writing at a first grade level :) (sorry a little bragging).

I am happy with the schools. I guess you need to thoroughly research your area. WE moved to a new, smaller district and a few teacher friends of ours who spent time student teaching on our district says they liked it very much.

Any how, there is a plethora of information on the web. I do not know any of hand, but if you guys gather some good links, forward them to me and I'll create a section on the site. I believe for a small fee some sites will set you up with a curriculum, recommended books and those sorts of things.

[Indy]

I was "homeschooled" in 7th and 8th grade. In reality, it was a school taught by a lady from our church, using one of the church's classrooms. Prior to that, she'd homeschooled her three children.

We had 8 kids in the class (three in my grade, four in the grade above me, and one a few grades below). Class was held at a conference table, and my grade shared ciriculum with the grade above us (essentially, I skipped 7th grade and did 9th grade twice). We were small enough that the state considered us a home school.

There are a lot of advantages to homeschooling. I benefited most from the ability to do a lot of things hands-on. Rather than just read about things, we took field trips and experienced a lot of stuff. We had field trips practically every other week.

Homeschooler's also benefit from a lot of one-on-one attention. It's near impossible to fall behind in a home school situation, assuming the ciriculum meets or exceeds what traditional students study.

Homeschooling is great for children who are interested in learning, or need a lot of individualized attention. Gifted students can also benefit by learning at their own pace.

On the flip side, homeschooling has its disadvantages. It takes a special breed of parent to be a home teacher. You must be well organized and disciplined. You must be well organized,and be interested in expanding your knowledge as well. Further, you must be aware of your limitations. As I've learned, there are few people who have the right balance of an analytical and creative mind. Those with analytical minds are typically strong in math and science, but don't fare as well in English and history. Know your strengths and find ways to work around your weaknesses.

As a homeschool teacher, you must also be able to explain things from multiple approaches. If you've ever studied under a professor who wrote the book used in the class, you probably understand what I mean. I had a professor who wrote one of our books, but couldn't use more than one approach to explain things. My thought processes were a bit different than his (he was an analytical mind, I was a creative mind), and I had trouble understanding some of his lectures.

Finally, there is one aspect of homeschooling that can be a detriment--the social aspect. Homeschoolers typically don't get the level of social interaction that traditional students have. As a result, many homeschoolers can be socially under-developed. As it turned out, the two years that I was homeschooled were critical years in my social development. I left homeschooling to go to a public high school, and found myself behind socially. As my friends would attest, I was immature (granted, I also went through puberty at 17). My wife would probably say I'm still a bit immature. :D

My teacher's children were homeschooled nearly all their lives, and lived isolated on a farm. The bulk of their social interaction was with one another. Their mother homeschooled them because she didn't want the evils of the world getting to them (she threw out the TV after one of the kids saw a show on evolution and asked if their brother started out as a monkey). When the two eldest children went off to college, they were finally able to rebel. And rebel they did. The son moved to Harlem to live a hard life (he aspired to be a writer and wanted to live a hard life). I spoke with him a few times and found that he genuinely hated himself. He spent most of his 20's running away from who he was. His sister was practically left at the altar by her fiancee. She was married less than a month later to a guy who was her "rebound". He was very abusive and controlling of her. The youngest son, who went to a public high school, turned out pretty normal. He got his degree in architecture from a state college, and is living the traditional life.

My advise to anyone thinking about homeschooling is to take a very close look as to how it will affect your child. Don't homeschool to protect your child. Homeschool because you can offer them a better quality of education. Also know that it takes a very special breed to teach. Just because you know the material won't make you a good teacher.

I've been fortunate that my education has been quite varied. I started out in a public elementary school (1-4 grade), moved on to a private school (5-6 grade), and then on to a homeschool situation (7-8 grade). From there, I went to a small public high school (68 kids in my graduating class). College consisted of a large, public commuter college (45,000 students), then a Catholic college (13,000 students, mostly female :D ) and finally distance learning (Rochester Institute of Technology). I feel as if I've experienced all major types of education. Each has its own benefits and detriments. The key is matching the right type of schooling to your child's personality. As I'm one who benefits from small class sizes and individualized attention, small schools were best for me. My wife, on the other hand, did better at schools where she remained anonymous.

If any of you have specific questions about homeschooling, or non-traditional education, I welcome your questions. I won't pretend that I have the answers you're seeking, but I feel I my experiences may help you make a good choice in your childrens' education.

[Jackson's Dad]

Interesting overview Indy. Our kids will be going to the local public schools, most likely. NJ, and this county, have a very good school system. One reason is I want our kids to socialize not only with children, but with adults other than family. I think it's an important thing for them to have other adults they have to listen to, and whom they may learn to respect. I still remember all of my grammar school teachers and their personalities - they were such a big influence, and interacting with all of them (learning from the good ones, and learning how to deal with the not so good ones) was a part of my education.

Still, it could be interesting to do, if you have the stamina and creativity!

Dan

[GoatBeard]

http://homeschooling.about.com/cs/gettingstarted/a/legalusa.htm

The above site has requirements listed by state.


Edit:
Look at AL compared to other states. It is a joke. :oops:

[Weston]

Thanks guys for the input... I might give you a shout out Indy if I can think of any specific questions.

My main reason for even considering homeschooling is the one on one attention I can give the little guy.... I might offend some people here, but I think a lot of people who homeschool do it for reasons having to do with religion and to protect their children from ideas they don't agree with. If anything, I would rather have my kiddo schooled in MORE diversity than the public school system can offer.

I was lucky enough to go to an "international studies" elementary school. It attracted children (many of them having refugee status) from many different nations. My mother used to laugh and say that I sat at an "international lunch table" ... Our little group consisted of kids from Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq (keep in mind this was during the Iran/Iraq war), India, France, and Poland. I think those early years of having such varied friendships left quite a mark on me... something I would like my Alex to experience too. We have no schools like that where we live now.

It sounds strange, but I feel like I can give him more opportunity to experience diversity (in learning and socially) than the public schools can offer.

Another thing I don't like about traditional schooling is the amount of time wasted (time bussed to and from school, classroom changes, different rates of learning, etc.)

I think the biggest problem I might run into as a *teacher* would be organizing my time. There's also that nagging doubt that I might not be qualified to teach anyone.

Edited to say:
I also don't like where the current political climate might be taking the teaching of evolution. I know the teaching of evolution will never be *banned* from school curriculum, but I just think that some theories should remain the standard and not continually questioned (What's the next theory to be attacked? Gravity?)

Sorry... end of rant

[Chef Dave hi-spd]

We are considering homeschooling because we feel our district is so bad. awhile back I did some ranting about our teacher. Well needless to say it didn't get better, in fact it got worse. Lying in bed the other night we figured that our teacher spends about 2 1/2 to 3 hours a day accually teaching in front of the class. We spent more than that teaching our daughter the homework he sends home. The curriculum is so bad, bad, bad and the district just bought these new math books. They are in a world of hurt. My wife who has been doing educational research for the past few years, she recognized the author of this book and groaned. It's so bad that they are highering consultants to come in and try and raise scores. I asked her why she doesn't help and she says that teachers in oregon don't like to hear what she has to say. The thing is she has the research to back up what she says. So what we decided was that we are going to get some material and start doing some home schooling over the summer. We want to see if I can create a schedule and get the work done. I'm one of those that is not sure that I can do a good job and have the patience to handle it. We'll see how it goes. If any one is interested in hearing about her research just e-mail me and I can answer your questions. She has done work in inner-city philidelpha, florida, chicago, and is now working up in vancover british columbia. All in schools, all helping kids to learn. Her big thing is taking kids that are low ses or labled " special needs" and showing that they can learn and in most cases out perform advanced kids. again if wants to talk more about it let me know.

[Weston]

I remember seeing on the news a few years ago where Oregon has had some real problems with their school system... including some schools having to be shut down temporarily... am I remembering correctly Dave?

[Indy]

.... I might offend some people here, but I think a lot of people who homeschool do it for reasons having to do with religion and to protect their children from ideas they don't agree with.

Unfortunately, that seemed to be the driving motivator in a lot of the homeschooling situations I saw. It was pretty evident in the homeschooling group that we were a part of. I would guestimate that 60-70% were doing it for just those reasons.

I've toyed with the idea of homeschooling, but doubt that my organizational skills are up to par. If we had the money, I'd like to take the kids out of school for a year and do some extensive traveling throughout the country--going back to that hands-on learning that I'm so fond of. It's a pipe dream, but if I did do something like that, I'd work closely with the school to make sure the kids stayed on track with their studies.

The focus of our church is schooling. Right now, they have an elementary school and plan to go all the way through high school. Most likely, our kids will go there. The church is Lutheran (Missouri Synod), and pretty moderate, meshing well with our personal views. I grew up Lutheran and like the approach my churches have had about not being all-knowing. There's room for dissenting opinion and it's not the fire-and-brimstone my father grew up with in the Baptist church.

[GoatBeard]

I have a few problems with public schools. One of the biggest is the teachers don't have the ability to discipline in any way shape or form for fear of lawsuit. Without that ability kids pretty much set the stage for how much my kid (or your kid) can learn. So, if there are a few kids who are disruptive, the ones who are really hurt are the ones who are there to actually learn something...

Many parents use public schools as babysitters. They could care less about education. Obviously, we are not like that or we wouldn't even be discussing this. Fact is, many parents just don't care about such 'oddities.'

The government's standards have dropped to the point of absurdity. If you compare the tests that our parents or grandparents took (my father is 70 years old), today's tests are about 1/4 as difficult. Generation after generation, for whatever reason, the standards drop.

Moreover, I don't trust my child in the hands of the government. Government schools learn what the government says is important. If any of you have ever worked for the government before (even in the military), you know how backwards things really are. The only people who know what's actually going on don't have a say in the politics of it. And, like Chef Dave says, what the facts say actually works doesn't really matter. To implement a program that works (or is better) the government would have to spend more money. "We don't have the funds to educate the kids, we have to build a new interstate." Many times, the schools are just as good as the funds they are 'allocated.'

I could go on an endless rant, but I won't.

My disdain has nothing to do with religion. I just don't want my kid to be a ward of the government, a statistic or whatever. Might be that all the sucky schools are located here in AL, who knows...

[Don-Dad]

One of the reasons we left stone mountain, GA was to get back to better schools. The schools in GA are ranked very low. Not all schools are bad down there but more bad than good. We are fortunate to have a good educatinal system. I was just in today to say good bye to my son's kindergarden teacher. She also has a full time assistant plus they get some help from college students from time to time. I am very comfortable with the school. My son has learned so much. I am not sure if I could be disciplined enough. Though I have an educational background wioth a BA in Psychology and a master in library science. I do think that learning does not end with the school day and do lots of educational activities at home.

[tt3]

Wow, this is crazy how my wife and I were just talking about this and lo and behold it shows up as a topic. I've got my teaching license (for a month more) in highschool biology. To get that we had to go through a lot of the general classes, developmental psychology, theory etc so I feel I've got a pretty good handle on what to expect from my kids. Its interesting how much your opinions mesh with mine, too guys. I student taught in the public schools and there is a lot of problems with it. One of my biggest peeves has already been mentioned that parents expect teachers to raise and babysit their kids. I've also had the great opportunity to work with two very highly respected teachers in the systems here, both of whom have very little discipline problems from any of their classes. Even with hands nearly tied they manage to keep it all under control. Thats a rarety, and becoming almost extinct in teaching. Now its more celebrating mediocracy and lowering standards to make the methods look better.
We've got a few more years before I have to step up and think hard about homeschooling though.

Oh, one other thing. There are two issues that I just don't get into. Religion and politics just get too heated and descend into personal attacks for me to participate, but here I go like a hypocrite.
Mention of evolution in schools... my take is this: the Theory of Evolution is a scientific explanation of development of species. Just like the aforementioned Gravity. It is SCIENCE. Creationism is religion, a faithbased explanation of develompment of species. SCIENCE and FAITH are distinct facets of discussion and honestly, in my opinion, should not be mixed or crossed. If you want to talk about variations on evolution, punctuated equilibrium etc cool. If you want to talk about Genesis, Leviticus, Matthew Mark Luke or John, cool, but I'll not mix them. Oil and water, two seperate distinct topics.

I've probably said too much, and very little coherant. I'm just not as eloquent as you guys! :roll:

[Weston]

I totally agree Tony

[tt3]

Thanks Mike! :)
theres one other thing that I forgot to mention since I'm already breaking my own guidelines.
Kind of a corallary (I should go back to spelling class) to the above. Evolution is not something to be believed in. Fries me me something fierce to hear that on the news "I don't believe in evolution." Its not something to believe or disbelieve! Its a scientific THEORY! sheesh... you either see the merits of that explanation or you don't.
Ok, I better stop now.

[Weston]

Thanks Mike! :)
theres one other thing that I forgot to mention since I'm already breaking my own guidelines.
Kind of a corallary (I should go back to spelling class) to the above. Evolution is not something to be believed in. Fries me me something fierce to hear that on the news "I don't believe in evolution." Its not something to believe or disbelieve! Its a scientific THEORY! sheesh... you either see the merits of that explanation or you don't.
Ok, I better stop now.

Hehe... like the theory of gravity... can you imagine someone saying the same thing about that? "I don't believe in gravity" :wink:

Ok... I'm prepared to be roasted now :shock: :D

[GoatBeard]

I agree Tony.

Here's one that should draw some flames. Back to the lawsuit thing... This may not come out right, but I'll have a go at it anyway.

Open your mind...

Over and over I hear this, "I will discipline my own child but I don't want anyone else to lay a hand on them." It is my belief that this is where the entire problem started -- the beginning of it all. The fall of the public school system...

If my child is out of control and needs discipline I EXPECT the teacher, principal or whomever to discipline them. Actually, I guess this would fall upon the principle's shoulders. If applicable, I will then dish out whatever discipline I deem worthy of the 'crime' when they get home.


I think I would expect this from other parents if my child was at their house. Example: If my kid kicks your kid in the nuts and when your kid hits the ground my kid kicks your kid in the head, YOU need to punish them. I'm not there to do it and it obviously needs to be done. I would expect this because you are the grown up, I have trusted you with my child and I therefore trust your judgment in punishment.

Now, I'm not talking about someone beating the total hell out of my kid. I am talking about the same punishment that was in place when I was in school. The same punishment that has been in place for a hundred hundred years before me... Yes, we feared the paddle; no, it was not implemented unless that was the last straw. AND it was not something to take lightly, e.g., you didn't get paddled 'just because'. It had to be something pretty bad. It was really just used to strike fear in the child. Or to say, "You have crossed the line way too far and must pay the price (in hopes you won't do it again!)."

This society is expecting teachers to babysit our children and in the same breath we are taking away any and all control/tools they may need to enforce the rules. Maybe I have the wrong expectations, but I cannot be there 100% of the time and therefore, at least in my mind, I have to TRUST other people's judgment. These are the teachers of my children. I am trusting them to teach my children and I feel that I must trust their judgment when it comes to disciplinary action(s).

Now maybe they should give me a call, tell me what happened, I should still be able to say, "Sounds like he/she needs to meet Mr. Paddle." In the old days, the parents got the call, but it wasn't a call to "ask" what to do -- usually, what to do had already been done.

The idea of, "I will discipline my child but you cannot touch them" started out okay. One of the parents could run down to the school and take care of business in whatever way. From the evil stare all the way to, (what my aunt used to say) "I'll stripe your legs." The way this society works now is that in most cases both parents work at jobs that we just can't leave when we want to. That's just the facts of it.

Isn't it like punishing a dog for crapping on the rug 6 hours after they crapped? They don't exactly understand what they have done. You are still rubbing their nose in crap that has hardened. I think childcare/school is quite the same. One should be punished when the 'crime' happens and not 8 hours later by someone else who knows part of the story. This is, you and I may discipline our children when they get home, but how many parents won't?

We cannot control them and what they do. But, when we take all power from the teachers we are taking away their ability to discipline everyone -- not just your and my child. What I'm getting at is by taking away the power to discipline we are taking it away for ALL kids, even the worst of the worst, even the ones who are making it impossible for our kids to learn... I expect that my children will be perfect, we all do, but what about 'the other kid.' The people in charge should be in charge and not questioned and/or second-thought constantly. We (the parents who actually care) have butted in to the point that no one gets disciplined, which is a huge problem. Again, we expect these people to raise our children (8 hours a day) and give them no power of discipline, whatsoever.

The fear of lawsuit has people scared to death. How many times have you heard, "If you see someone laying there dying, don't touch them -- they may sue you!" What has this world come to?

I'm sure that my view about what I have written above may change, but as of here and now, that's pretty much how I feel -- and I don't know why anyone would want to teach these days (especially in the 'rough schools'). I mean, it's like tyeing someone's hands and legs together and asking them to swim across a lake. It's like an oxymoron, never gonna happen, not possible.

I spent 7 years of my life in college; all I wanted to do was teach (college). I have an AA and a BA in English. I completed most of my Master's courses when I realized that I didn't want to teach in a world where I have to go to work under a microscope. I can still teach my own child, which is why this thread is something I'm very passionate about/interested in.

[Don-Dad]

Very nice post :) I agree 100%. I still remember getting spanked with a ruler while in a catholic school (spent kindergarden, first grade and some of 5th grade in catholic schools).

It's hard enough to find teachers because of the low pay. I know many parents that harrass teachers. Then have the attitude that their little Johnny would never have done anything bad.

Funny how so many parents are worried about who's disciplining their child but after maternity leave ship the kid off to daycare for 9 hours a day.

Damn, we have had some serious topics lately, maybe the post Louis made about the Slowlane post hit a nerve, hahaha!

[jeffus]

I'm amazed you had enough free time to type all that.... :D

Great post!

I have to admit that my kid's preschool is pretty good at the discipline thing. She goes 3 days a week and behaves like an angel. The other 2 days during the week when I have her - no problem.

It's the weekends that kill us - Mommy's home and the rules tend to get bent, broken, & twisted. Or we go to a family function with spoiling grand parents, aunts & uncles.

I usually have to suffer through some tough re-negotiations on Monday morning after everyone else has disappeared. Then, there's Tuesday mornings! Yay! For all the 'stuff' I went thru yesterday, I'm smiling as I pack-up her lunch and sleeping bag and tote her off to pre-school.

She gets to play, learn, socialize, and get disciplined as necessary. And she usually comes home with a much better attitude, which makes the rest of the week much more fun (until the weekend rolls around, again).

I chaperoned a trip with her school last week and her class (the 3 & 4 year olds) were the best behaved bunch in the group. I was catching some trash-talk from the 5 year olds- though.

So, in conclusion, I guess my point is (did I have one?) that I'm all for discipline and probably some structure in the kid's life that engages them. You have to give the teachers room to work. We just got her 'assessment' for the end of the school year and while I don't agree totally with it, I'm giving her teacher the benefit of the doubt. I've seen their discipline methods at work (especially during our little outing last week) and they are appropriate and effective. So I will defer to their judgement at this point.

And in re-conclusion, I guess my next point would be to stay involved! I don't know anything about this stuff. But it seems to me, that if I talk to her teachers, do my best at home, participate in her life, use my knowledge and skills, and immerse myself in her life - it may just turn out OK.

Quite frankly, I'm amazed I found the time to type all that!

[tt3]

Goat, you're preaching to the choir for about 90% of your post. I've ranted enough about the parent/teacher relationship from the teachers standpoint that I won't ride that dead horse anymore. Where I dissagree is at the actual striking, for the most part. There are other options for punishment besides the striking, and having almost layed hands on a student, I'm thankful I thought better of it, because I was very tempted to put him through the wall. At this point I'd be afraid that the kids most likely to recieve the paddle have already seen that form of punishment and it means very little. I'd also be afraid of the motives behind it.
I think there is enough violence already, its so pervasive, that I couldn't condone it in the schools.
In the case of that wall bound student, I found it more effective to give him detention through his football practice. His coach happened to be the asst. principal, and was very supportive of my point of view. :D
Who knows, man, until our kids are there, I won't know how I'll react.

I think at some point there should be the distinction made between discipline and punishment. Too often they get confused. Punishment happens when discipline fails.
Again, I better stop...

And again, I took to long and Jeff posted more! :D

[jeffus]

Sorry, got me on a soon to be near and dear topic in my life.....

[Don-Dad]

My short attention span has been tested here lately, lots of long winded posts. Keep up the good work =D>

[Weston]

Here's long post-

Ug.. discipline good... misbehave bad

Ug

[Weston]

I've got some opinions on the discipline thing, but not the experience that Tony and Goat have on the teaching end of it... so my opinions probably mean very little, and my views will most definitely change as I see Alex involved with other kids when he's older.

[tt3]

Hey man, opinions are like a....
nevermind.
Let 'em fly. I'm always ready to hear others. Makes it interesting during the day when I hear "daddy, daddy, daddy, daddy, daddy, daddy, waaahahahahaaaaaa
eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee, daddy, daddy, daddy."

[GoatBeard]

Tony, I agree. There is a difference between punishment and discipline -- a huge difference. But punishment has no place in today's schools.

You stated:
"At this point I'd be afraid that the kids most likely to receive the paddle have already seen that form of punishment and it means very little."

I'd say that goes both ways. Maybe they've seen too much discipline and no punishment (if we are saying 'punishment' means a whoopin'). Who knows...

Anyway, it's a complicated subject to say the least. I'm sure there are many answers and I'm also sure that my views will change as I grow...

[RefDad]

If you can home school your kids you're a better man than I! Preschool and school have been savior-like for me as my boys are about as stubborn as I am.

I have tried to take an open-minded look at things. I won't coach my sons in sports, for example, because they've had me telling them what to do for 12+hours per day their whole lives. I wouldn't wish more "me" on anyone. That's just the way our personalities are. We're lucky to live in a good school district, and we're moving to an even better one this summer. If the schools turn bad, or we have bad experiences, we'd find a way to cut expenses and send them to private school.

On discipline, I agree with 90 percent of what's been written also. I don't hit or strike but it's crossed my mind. I wasn't spanked growing up by my father but I always feared his consequences. My mom spanked and I thought it was a joke. She could have gotten more mileage out of discipline rather than punishment ... but I was a pain in the a$$ when young.

Also, I'm with Jeff -- my wife and I have developed two different sets of rules and discipline measures. I know this is unhealthy for the kids and we're working on it. I'm of the opinion that if I say, "Don't throw the ball in the house" and one of them throws the ball in the house ... the ball gets taken away. Pretty simple to understand. They're boys -- they'll test their limits. Unfortunately my wife is in the habit of never saying "no" and saying "Don't throw the ball in the house" about 10-11 times before she finally takes the ball away.

[jeffus]

Regarding the wife breaking the rules...she does respond to spanking 8)

Seriously though, the kid across the street is home schooled. I actually almost never see him leave the house. I never see his friends come to the house. His family is very active in their church and say he gets his interaction there. Nice kid, he's polite, seems smart. Don't know much more about the kid.

Seems like extremely limited interaction with the real world and real world situations. At this point, I'm not sold on the idea.

I thought about home-schooling at one point. Not impressed with the results across the street (though you really shouldn't make a conclusion on 1 example, even though I did). I think they got to get out of the house and deal with the world.

[GoatBeard]

:twisted:

[Jackson's Dad]

What a long thread! I'll just jump in with a couple comments.

Speaking of evolution, the goings-on in Kansas make me so sad for this country and its future. Wow, people who do not understand what science is, and are proud of their ignorance. Teaching creationism (or whatever they try to disguise it as) as science is like claiming the 2+2=blue. You all have to check out what one science teacher is doing to try to raise awareness: Darwin has a posse (http://www.swarthmore.edu/NatSci/cpurrin1/evolk12/posse/chazhasaposse.htm). If you've seen any of the Andre the Giant stickers, you'll appreciate this more.

Changing topics: Discipline in schools is great. But no, I don't agree with the teacher ever touching my kid. To me, any form of striking isn't an effective punishment, since it indicates strongly that you've already lost control. But there are other ways to discipline kids. I went through 9 years of Catholic school, and was never hit in an way. But man, did they have us disciplined well!

Dan[/url]

[Don-Dad]

Did you go to St. Francis?

[tt3]

Something else that occured to me, when I was working in the education department at the aquarium they always dreaded the homeschool groups coming in. Something to do with lack of discipline.
Very interesting stuff.
hey tt.... Creationism rules.... darwin sux... look at a chimp flinging crap and sucking down a banana and tell me I'm related to that? You gotta be stoned!
:finga:

:lol:


uhoh, was that tasteless?... if so, sorry...
:twisted:

Edited to say: I'm going to get me some Darwin bumperstickers!

[Don-Dad]

Bad daddy!

[jeffus]

Again, with the big words?! He said what? :lol:

[Weston]

Like the bumper sticker Dan... going to get one

[dabrewinguy]

I know for a fact that I don't have the patience or the background to homeschool my kids. I can hardly convince myself to study some days. But I do have a strong opinion about who should or shouldn't discipline my children. Growing up I was over-disciplined, I feared my parents so much that even to this day I still don't feel at ease talking to them about stuff. That being said, I do still believe in having firm consequences for their actions, which does include a spanking if the offense warrants it. But that comes from me and only me. I would never expect or even want someone else to discipline or punish my child. If they act up in school, they have the rest of the day to look forward to explaining it to me when they get home. From little on, I have made it very clear to them that even if they don't agree with someone or something, they still have to be respectful.

Not to pat myself on the back, but I've had friends, family, teachers and even total strangers tell me that I have very well behaved kids. I think it's because they know exactly who they have to explain things to if they don't behave. My opinion, there's only one place that discipline should come from...at home. It's just not appropriate coming from anyone else, and from anyone else it only serves to humiliate them. Ultimately we all want our kids to be accountable to themselves, to have good judgement, and know what is right and wrong in their own mind. That's something that has to be instilled in them from early on.

[GoatBeard]

Let me stick my foot in my mouth again.

All of us here know that we will have perfect kids. Or, that we can handle whatever problem may arise. The problem isn't your or my kid (again, we wouldn't even be having this debate if we didn't care) -- it's the kids who get their entire raising from the public school system. In my opinion, those kids are the problem. It's not even their fault that they are the problem -- it is the parent's fault. These kids are basically wards of the state and the teachers are given the role of parents minus the ability of discipline/punishment.

But that's what I was getting at, many people use public schools as babysitters (and more). Where do those children get their discipline/punishment if not from the teachers? And, if they don't get any discipline/punishment why is it that my child should have to suffer for someone else's behavior problems?

I still say we (the good parents) have taken all power from the teachers, enabling the problem children (and the parents who don't care) to reign over public schools as a whole. Since we have taken the majority of power away from teachers we see rough schools getting rougher, more and more people looking to homeschooling and/or private schools.

There have always been bad parents. I'm making the case that at the point in time that the power was taken from the teachers, and it was taken away by the 'good parents', the problem spiraled out of control (bad kids got really really bad and are now out of control). The end result is that homeschooling and/or private schools are the only alternative left to get our 'good' kids away from the 'bad' kids.

I still say, the good parents are where the problem started in the first place -- good intention, bad result.

[Weston]

But that's what I was getting at, many people use public schools as babysitters (and more). Where do those children get their discipline/punishment if not from the teachers? And, if they don't get any discipline/punishment why is it that my child should have to suffer for someone else's behavior problems?


I agree with you here... Its really doing a lot of harm when a few kids disrupt class continuously and affect the way the class is taught.

Back when I was in High School some of my classes were very bad in this respect. The High School I went to was recently mentioned in a top 100 list of the US as being #52 (and was well thought of back then too), yet I remember distinctly that many of the classes I had were always being interupted because of discipline problems. I always wondered why these kids weren't seperated from the rest of the class early on instead of letting them continue to come to class and keep up with the misbehaviour.

I really don't think "physical" punishment would work, and agree with others that I don't think it belongs in school... but Dang, why not just SEPERATE THE BAD APPLES FROM THE REST OF THE CLASS IMMEDIATELY when problems arise. If things haven't changed since I was in school, it would only take pulling out a few students from classes to fix the problem... I think 90% of kids in school today really want to learn and put some effort into it... its the 10% that's ruining it for the rest.

[GoatBeard]

Oops, double-posted. :P

[tt3]

Goat, I'm with you as well. There are programs for kids before school and into the evenings when classes are done five days a week. Not only are those kids there for the 8 hours of classes, but potentially 12-14hrs! One of the teaches I worked with had a stack of detention slips and ejection slips in his pocket, some pre-filled out. If a kid was distruptive he (or she) would get the boot, immediately.
It got to the point though that if a student was feeling particulary ornery he'd be gone before the first bell.
Great for the rest of the class maybe, but crappy for that kid.
Dunno if there is a solution, I'm mostly just babbling right now.

[Don-Dad]

What is physical punishment? I remember in middle school who used to make kid who got out of line too mush hold a coin up against the wall using their head for a while. you know, leaving the coin impression on their forehead for a while. kind of embarassing, hahaha!

[jeffus]

You know - everyone goes to school because they have to. It's the law.

After High school, it all changes. You go to college cause you want to and you (should be) paying attention because you (or your parents) are paying a huge amount of bucks to be there. The light at the end of the tunnel says - best GPA = best job! (And best possiblity of paying off student loans!) Trouble-makers here are summarily met with a severe tongue-lashing. There are no beatings or bullying since we are all book-carrying nerds.

You go to grad school where you pay even bigger bucks and you talk the teacher to death and won't let them get away because you mortgaged the house to be in their presence. Any trouble makers in this bunch are summarily beaten by the bike rack in front of the library and left for dead. Now, we are nerds who've mortgaged the house and have really tense relationships with our employers and spouses and disruptive influences just will not be tolerated at all.

Maybe we should make the kids PAY for school out of their milk money? :shock:

[GoatBeard]

That's exactly what's happening, but the exact opposite. I'm having to pay to guarantee my child a good education. I could always roll the die and send my kid to a public school and hope for the best.

If you were to take some people out of class and send them to whatever school it would now be called 'segregation' by someone -- then the school would get sued. We did away with segregation (separation). I'm being sarcastic playing on the word 'separation'.

On the other hand, I'm serious in that the school would face a lawsuit by someone for them having the audacity to demand the students adhere to some type of rule, law and/or authority or face whatever punishment -- from alternate school to standing in the litter box...

There has to be an answer besides forking over thousands upon thousands to guarantee and education -- especially in a society where education is a requirement, by law.

[Weston]

Dang, I was just talking about taking out the hardcore misbehaviours, not chopping the whole class up based on small degrees of misbehaviour.

I understand where you are coming from Jeff... makes a lot of sense and also makes me wonder if we aren't wasting our time on some kids in High school... if they are forced to go and don't want to but actually make it most of the way through and haven't learned anything... what's the point? Why not give them an option of trade school? My last employer has more money that i'll ever have, yet just recently got his GED. The ones who want to learn will stay in school... the ones who don't want to and continue disrupting class can be given an option of a trade to learn.

I know this is pretty simplistic thinking and yes I agree that math and science are VERY important... but I don't think forcing children who continually demonstrate that they are not interested in learning but more interested in drawing attention from their classmates is going to help the situation.

Half of the classes I attended in school were AG... the other half were *regular* classes... Their was NEVER any disruption in the AG classes, I think because of the reasoning that Jeff stated earlier... most kids in the AG classes were there because they excelled in that topic and were willing to work at learning it (ie- they wanted to be there). In the other classes that weren't AG... that is where I saw most of the misbehaviour (granted it was still only a small percentage of the class, but enough to slow down learning of subject matter)

I wonder what countries like Canada, Germany, and Finland do in their school system? If I'm not mistaken they don't have our problems.

[Don-Dad]

I think countries like Canada put a higher emphasis on education that the US. We have so many schools that just do not have the funds to do all the things the students need. I know we pay alot in school taxes but they still have been cutting out athletics and extra curricular activities. I think that public schools might need to start taking a que from public colleges and hitting up businesses and alumni for financial support.

I guess we all agree that the system needs work. I feel even better my my school system now, thanks :P hehehe!

[GoatBeard]

In many European schools it works like this...

You go to high school and you head down either one of two paths.

1. College Prep.

If you decide you're going to go to college, you take classes that will prepare you for college. In places like Vienna, Austria, college is FREE for everyone (even people from other countries)! Imagine that...

2. A Trade

If you decide on a trade then you take classes that will prepare you for that trade. Not only that, after you graduate you go straight into an apprenticeship with the employer that you will most likely stay with until you retire. They already have the job set up for you and you spend your life working at whatever trade you have chosen for yourself. You get to work your way up the ladder within that trade -- from 'apprentice' to 'master' of whatever trade you choose.

I like the trade idea. It would give people jobs and give them a working knowledge of what they are doing BEFORE they have wasted their time taking a whole bunch'a classes that have absolutely nothing to do with what they are actually interested in.

In many schools today we still have some form of trade schools. There is still much less learning the trade and a lot more taking required courses. Then, when these people graduate, they have to find a job -- I bet 9 out of 10 end up doing something different than what they want.

Doing something different is the same with people who have a college degree, too (i.e., many times the degree is totally different from what you end up doing). But the above example is people who have only high school education -- not nearly as many choices at that point in time.

[Jackson's Dad]

Did you go to St. Francis?

Yeah, for one year. That summer, I had to pay off the tuition by working on campus (changing flourescent light bulbs, cleaning locker rooms, etc... awful). Somehow I convinced my parents to let me transfer to the public high school. Was I psyched! (My older brother went to St. Francis for 4 years.)

[Jackson's Dad]

many people use public schools as babysitters (and more)

While I'm sure there are some people who use the schools to babysit their kids, I doubt the problem is so wide-spread. There are always wild stories about how bad public schools have gotten. I remember when I was trying to convince my parents to let me transfer from a Catholic high school (with an excellent rep) to my local public. They were nervous because of all the stories they heard about drugs, trouble, and delinquents. Ever see the movie Dazed and Confused? That was our public school's reputation. (My guess, these were stories spread by the people who also tried to cut the school's budget each year.) So, when I laughed and told them stories about what went on in my "better" private school (the open use of drugs, the classism, the bullying) they relented. Both schools were good, in their own way, but it was just a matter of finding the environment I did better in.

I wonder what countries like Canada, Germany, and Finland do in their school system? If I'm not mistaken they don't have our problems.

I have friends who went to school in France, Japan, England. From the stories they told me, they have the same problems, just as bad.

[mrandjr]

I feel lucky that Michigan has "School of Choice". We can choose to send our son when the time comes, to any school in the state.

I am a fan of public schools with good educational opportunities. There is a lot to be said about the socialization aspect of public schools. Not just in the making of friends but in the learning about people and how they interact. That is what makes the world go round.

However, I think the education of your child is most important. If the local schools are very bad homeschooling would be an obvious choice. I know our school district is horrible! We will be taking our son to a different district for sure in a few years!

[TwistedLefty]

i know this is an old thread but i am new so i will gladly add my 2 cents.

i have been a SaHD for over 8 years now and have been HSing my 8 year old boy and 6 year old girl for nearly 3 years now.

there are plenty of free sites on the web to help and all the info you need to give it a shot.
all states have laws reguarding requirements such as record keeping etc.

once you get started and develop a routine it's not nearly as hard as it seems.