Newborn sleep controversy . . .

[Ma(tt)Daddy]

OK. So I have a three-and-a-half-week-old baby. Said three-and-a-half-week-old will almost never nap unless he is being held, or laying on Mom or Dad's chest. :???:

At night, child will not sleep at all, unless he is nursed to sleep by his mother, then he will fall soundly asleep(usually still attached to Mom) in the bed next to us, and sleep there pretty soundly all night, with maybe one or two wakings the rest of the night. If we try to move him to his co-sleeper (which is attached to the bed right next to his mother) he will lay there quietly for, oh, say about fifteen minutes, when he will begin that quiet, stretchy, yawny, fuss that always leads to a cry. I have gotten up and soothed him by rocking and holding him, until he is very drowsy or sometimes asleep, and when I put him back down in his co-sleeper, we start the whole thing again in another fifteen minutes. If I give him back to his mother, he lays down either on or next to her breast, and is shortly asleep.

So . . . what bothers me is this: I am not crazy about the idea of a "family bed." Not only because it flies in the face of everything the SIDS foundation advises against (which is, by the way, a terrible, terrible thing for parents of a newborn to have constantly floating over their already anxious heads) but also because we live in a small two-flat that is even smaller with the baby, and I feel that soon, our bed is going to be the only space in the house that we are going to be able to call our own.

But the dilemma is this: he sleeps very well with us in the bed and very poorly everywhere else. His pediatrician tells us that babies have no "sleep associations" until about four months, so we should do whatever it takes to get him to sleep until then. But I am worried about two things: that he will develop a sleep habit that will be VERY difficult to break later, and that, as the freakin' SIDS foundation illustrates, we might wake up in the middle of the night with a dead baby.

Anyone else with similiar newborn sleep experiences? If so . . . advice and/or reassurance would be greatly appreciated.

--Matt

[Weston]

I agree with you on the SIDS thing... Alex sleeps with us now but he's 13 months old so I'm not as worried about rolling over on him or something else.

When he was very little he would sleep with us on accasion and I never slept well because I had a fear of rolling over on him in my sleep.

Alex did most of his sleeping in his swing which was out in the living room next to the couch. I would sleep out there with him and bring him to wife when he woke up to nurse (unless she had a very long day that day, and then I let her sleep and I fed him a bottle with milk she had previously pumped.

The swing worked wonders because it had a noise sensor... the swing would turn on if he started to whimper or cry and that would usually lull him back to sleep.

Mike

[Jackson's Dad]

I wouldn't worry about the SIDS thing quite so much... chances are, if you know about it, and think about it, you are already creating a situation for your kid that minimizes the chance of it. For example, stats in our area, which is relatively well-to-do and educated, show that when the "Back to Sleep" movement started, there was no change in the already low instances of SIDS. Remember, they don't know *what* causes it, only that certain behaviors and attitudes seem to minimize (correlation not causation).

We also read that you can't spoil your kid until around 4 months, and agree with it. Before then, just do whatever you need to do. So technically for the baby, the family bed would work. What I worried about though was ME. The family bed would have completely screwed up my ability to sleep. This would've made Jackson's first 4 months even more difficult, and made me a worse parent. I'd rather have my baby cry some more (heck they do it all the time anyway) and be better rested, and better able to function.

Also, the thing about sleep habits is that the hardest ones to overcome are your own habits, not the kids. You get into the habit of putting the baby to bed a certain way, and that is a very hard habit to break. My sister never planned on having a family bed, but like you, thought that she'd do it for a while because it worked. Well, at 4 months, she didn't want to rock the boat and stop it. Then it was 5 months, then 6 months, and she still wanted to continue with "what worked". Then when she finally tried to change the baby, she had a really hard time because by then, the baby developed the habit.

During those first four to five months, we just did whatever it took to help him sleep. It seemed to change every few days as he developed, so you need to roll with it. We used pacifiers, swaddling, swing, sleeping in his car seat (a GREAT one), etc. We also worked on our schedules until we found one that fit our own sleep patterns (I can stay up late or wake up really early, but have trouble waking up in the middle of the night. My wife is the opposite. So i'd take the 11pm to 2am shift, then the 5am shift, while she took the 2-5am shift. Worked really well for us.)

Yeah, getting a baby to sleep is one of the absolute hardest things I've ever have had to do. It challenges you on a mental, emotional, and physical level -- and no one ever warns you of it! Hang in there! Be strong!

Dan

[Indy]

Have you tried swaddling? Try that, and maybe a noise machine. We've had friends who have tried both techniques and were successful. Worst case, you may have to spend a day of letting the child scream. It's tough to do, but eventually he'll learn to comfort himself. Rachel spent two or three nights downstairs by herself, and screamed for a good hour or two. But once she got past it, getting her to sleep was no longer a problem.

I did a lot better once I realized that Rachel's crying was her way of communicating, and that there were different cries for different needs. I also learned that there were times when she was just going to cry, and there was nothing I could do to stop it. Eventually, you learn to filter out the crying and life gets easier.

[Presdad]

Hi Matt,

Have you tried using the car seat as a secondary sleeping place? We've had good luck with that, sort of using it as an alternative to the crib on fussier nights. It was recommended to us by friends who have 3 kids. It's nice because the way the base is shaped it's easy to rock the little guy to sleep. We asked the docs and they said what pretty much everyone says which is whatever it takes for now. During the day, he really seems to prefer the car seat, though I usually try the crib first.

We were dead-set against pacifiers initially especially since at 1.5 weeks he started sucking his thumb. Then he stopped. We waited a while and then hellllooo binky! But we only use it when we have to otherwise I'll always see if he can zonk out without it and much of the time he's fine. I guess it's like the car seat, sometimes that little extra or different gets the job done. The downside is if he does have it in and it falls out, he can wake up fussing and it becomes a beat the clock issue if we can get it back in and get him back to sleep before he wakes up too much.

Like the car seat, I do wonder how it will be "undoing" these things down the road but for now we have to do what we have to do.

Oh yeah, the little guy seems mesmerized by ceiling fans and often studies ours carefully when it's on the slow speed and it really distracts/calms him down. I know your little person might not be able to see as well yet but it's something to keep in mind.

I hope in some way that helps. Hang in there Amigo. It will get better.

Tim

[Jackson's Dad]

Like the car seat, I do wonder how it will be "undoing" these things down the road but for now we have to do what we have to do.

Undoing it wasn't hard for us. We used swadding + the pacificer until about 5 months, usually combined with the car seat or bouncy seat. (His "bed" changed every week or so, as one failed to work and we tried another.)

At that point we ferberized him, and since we couldn't figure out how to gracefully get rid of pacifier, we just got rid of it cold turkey, along with the swaddling and his nighttime feeding. It worked: 3 days later, he was falling asleep on his own. (But MAN those were not easy nights!)

I think that things like pacifiers are more of a habit for the parent! ("Quick, cork him up!"). Like Indy said, crying isn't a bad thing, just something to endure.

[Ma(tt)Daddy]

I think that things like pacifiers are more of a habit for the parent! ("Quick, cork him up!"). Like Indy said, crying isn't a bad thing, just something to endure.

True, true.

It amazing, actually, how much controversy surrounds parenting tactics and methods, such as ferberizing, the family bed and pacifiers . . . makes your head swim sometimes!! Who the hell do you believe???

Me, I tend to listen to "experts" less, and experienced parents with happy kids more.

[Weston]

Nothing worked for us, so after a few months we decided we should "crate train" him.














no, no, Just kidding :)

[GoatBeard]

We had a thing called a "bouncy seat" or something like that -- made by Eddie Bauer. Anyway, it sat at a slightly inclined position and had a vibrate function. That thing was awesome -- I was sad when I saw that she was getting too big for it.

No matter what you try and/or decide, it will get better.

[Presdad]

We had a thing called a "bouncy seat" or something like that -- made by Eddie Bauer. Anyway, it sat at a slightly inclined position and had a vibrate function. That thing was awesome -- I was sad when I saw that she was getting too big for it.

No matter what you try and/or decide, it will get better.


Oh yeah, I forgot to mention we use on of those, too. He hated it at first but now it's integral. It has the vibrating function and a keyboard that you can put on it so he can bang away on the piano. Anyway, he doesn't really sleep in it much (or should I say enough) but it sure has been a great playtime device.

Now if we could just get him to like the swing.

Tim

[Indy]

Nothing worked for us, so after a few months we decided we should "crate train" him.

I agree crate training's pretty effective, though a bit unconventional.

http://www.stdindustry.com/images/IMG_7588.jpg

Edit: You and your sneaky long posts. Now I feel a bit wierd for sharing that picture. :lol:

[tt3]

There were a good number of nights where Leah would only sleep in the swing. Those experts that say sleep habits don't develop until later are missing the point that its much nicer to be next to the food and heat of mommy than in a crib without. Yeah, they might not be used to it, but its nice when its there, and not nice when its gone.

[Weston]

Never seen a Skinner box before...

Ha! We've got that exact one.... umm for the dogs :lol:

[Jackson's Dad]

Those experts that say sleep habits don't develop until later are missing the point that its much nicer to be next to the food and heat of mommy than in a crib without. Yeah, they might not be used to it, but its nice when its there, and not nice when its gone.

The way I understand it, under 4-6 months they don't have the cognitive ability to remember things, or have desires for things that are not there. (Or something like that.) To a newborn, hunger isn't a concept, but just this not-nice feeling that sometimes somehow goes away. Around 4 month, they start to learn associations ("Oh! When I drink that liquid stuff, that empty stomach feeling goes away!"). Its then that they begin to "need" it.

Man, we used when Jackson was young: swing, carseat, bouncy seat. Maybe we should've tried the crate: our puppy slept through the night in two nights. ;-)

It amazing, actually, how much controversy surrounds parenting tactics and methods, such as ferberizing, the family bed and pacifiers . . . makes your head swim sometimes!!

We just had this conversation with a friend last week: why everyone is so militant about their own parenting techniques. We figured it was because of how difficult this all is. No matter what method you use or invent, you so often worry you are "doing it wrong". The only way around that is to try and convince yourself that you are right. Experts don't help in that they just want to make a name for themselves, so they often try to discredit their opponents' methods. So no matter how you raise your kids, there's *someone* saying you're screwing up!

[dabrewinguy]

We didn't have any hard fast rules about where the kids should sleep the first few months, on particularly bad nights it was in bed with us. We also had a bassinette set up in our room and used that as much as we could. They loved that thing, it had a built in nightlight, it played music and vibrated. Now that I think about it, I remember we also had one of those little teddy bears that mimicked the sound of mom's heartbeat when they are in the womb. That might be worth a try too, maybe having that repetitive sound in the crib with him will help comfort him enough for everyone to get a good nights sleep.

[jeffus]

Arggh! I got a perfectly good pic of the kid in the crate with the dog and I can't find it!

[Ma(tt)Daddy]

no matter how you raise your kids, there's *someone* saying you're screwing up!


True 'dat!!!!!!!

](*,)

[Ma(tt)Daddy]

To Indy, re: pic of baby in doggy crate:

HHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHAAAAAA AAAAA!!!

Laughed my a$$ off!!

(Although my golden retriever never would have tolerated someone ELSE in her crate!!!!!!)

[Lefty]

My wife and I watched neighbors allow their daughter sleep in their bed until she was five years old. We heard her throw a fit each night they put her to bed. Our neighbors ended up letting the kid stay up on the parents schedule just so they could do what they had to do. We wondered how they could survive as an intimate couple with this arrangement. When our first boy came along we wanted to be as close to him as possible, but I did not want to end up three in a bed. We put Max in his crib in another room on his third night home and never looked back. Same thing with Gabriel.

In fact our boys are great at bedtime (to a point of course) because we set firm rules they understand. I think that when set up early like this the sleeping arrangements just get easier. Sure there were hundreds of nights we got up thousands of times, but as the boys got older the effort got easier.

Max learned how to sleep in a regular bed while we were on vacation because the crib they set us up with was so rickety. He took to it like a fish to water. Gabriel wanted to be like Max and he followed suit.

The SIDS aspect is very real and I would not try to minimize how someone feels about this tragic possibility, but that's just what it is, a possibilty. I don't equate it with childproofing a house or getting the best car seat you can afford. SIDS just happens, like any other medical emergency. Our newborns were swadled like mummies and braced with rolled, rubberbanded towels to position them so they slept on their sides. We got through that stage of their lives with no issues (thank God).

[Thundercranium]

My son slept on my wife in an armchair for the first few weeks, then we moved him into the bed for a week or two, then the basinette. We had no idea what we were doing. He would seem to have a major fit every night before he fell asleep - we figured that was just the way babies were! Even after we moved him to his crib we would always let him fall asleep nursing, then wait until he was well out before I would gingerly lift him off and put him to bed.

Turns out we were keeping him up too late! Usually we tried to get him to sleep around 8. The fits were because he was overtired. Once we figured that out we started putting him down at 6:30-6:45. He took to that like a duck to water. We then switched to a bottle before bed, so we would know exactly how much he'd eaten. Once that change was introduced we put him in his crib awake as soon as the bottle was gone.

The first night he cried for about 35 minutes. We would go in every 10 minutes. The second night he cried for about 25 minutes total. The third night we put him down, he rolled over and went to sleep. No problems since. The best thing we found about doing things this way is that, when he woke up hungry in the middle of the night, once he was fed you could put him right back down again.


My experience is that routine is the key. It took us a while to figure this out! Before every sleep the same steps should be followed. For us it's dinner/bath/story/bottle/bed. Alexander started sleeping through the night at about 8 months, albeit maybe 4 nights out of 7. Now, at 12 months, he's more like 14 nights out of 15. Life is good :D

Of course, every baby is different. If they weren't this would be a lot easier and a lot less fun!

Best of luck!

[Presdad]

Funny how things change. Since my post on this topic a month ago, we've run into problems with the little guy moving all over the place in the crib and ending up with an arm or leg sticking out between the bars or on his tummy (or both) and howling because he's "stuck" there. We are so tired that tonight my wife said she doesn't care, she's putting him in the bed with her so we all can get some sleep. Hard for me to argue since I can sleep in the guestroom and maybe get some solid sack time. We're thinking this is just a phase with him and do whatever it takes until he can get comfortable sleeping again. We do let him nap in the infant to child rocker we've recently gotten (car seat is now too small) and that works pretty well. So I guess it's just going from phase to phase with this stuff...some good, some not so good.

Tim

[sao95]

we used the bouncy seat at night alot, because we didn't want her sleeping with us, for all the above mentioned reasons, and it worked, I was a little paranoid about her sleeping in a bouncy seat while we were sleeping so I would put the bouncy seat in her playpen, by our bed. like so many others have said, whatever it takes. Although at about 4-6 months I started getting up and I would lay on the couch with her, she slept and I would dose until I could put her in her crib. Then I would get up, drink a beer and watch MASH, then go back to sleep :D I miss those days :(
sao

[pstone]

I swaddled the crap out of our little boy for 5 months...was only way he would sleep...and the pacifier too!...and white noise....

at 5 months took the pacifier and swaddle away, took him a few days to adjust...and he has not used either since....

but I only have one...I know they are all different...I was totally agaist the family bed idea....he never slept with us ever....wife was mad but since she is resident doctor she is not always home at nights....

[Jackson's Dad]

pstone, we did exactly the same thing with exactly the same results.

(Except that my wife was as against family beds as I was.)