Paradigm shift

[Anonymous]

Hello!

I am an undergraduate student at USF attaining my BSW. We are doing a project on paradigm shifts and we have chosen stay at home dads as our topic. I would appreciate any insight you have in regard to alternatives of oppression in regard to a being a stay at home dad. Your experiences will help me greatly.

Thank you,
Ann

[Anonymous]

I apologize for not being more cistinct. The traditional alternative is having the mother stay at home, the husband in charge of the money, etc. the definition of oppression in regard to social work is that of a group or individual that is being held back from their right to 'self determination.' Therefore, I would like to hear about the alternatives, that one has experienced at being a stay at home dad. In other words I would like to compare traditional to alternative. More clear?

Thanks,
Ann

[Anonymous]

One more tidbit if this will help the traditional is priveledged the alternative is oppression.

[Anonymous]

M:
First thank you for the spelling correction :D I was typing too quickly and the brain wasn't keeping up! You have helped, thank you. I was priveledged and blessed to be able to stay at home and raise my 4 children, a 'job' that rivels none! We are responsible for turning out responsible, law biding, all around good citizens not to mention happy adults! I commend you and others who have made the choice to stay at home and raise your children. A wise choice in this lady's eyes. Best of luck and you will know no greater joy!

Ann

[benj]

Annie...You were 'privileged' to meet Louis,
our resident 'brain trust,' early and in usual fine form,
(or as you referred, M; yet another man of vision)...

The key to survival is adaptation Ann,...

Whether physically or mentally,
there is nothing permanent,...
except change.

[Anonymous]

Another key to survival...sense of humor of which neither of you seemed to have lost! :lol:

[jeffus]

Sure, why don't you just do her homework for her...Maybe you can carry her books too.....

I think she needs to read every single post for herself and then, maybe, we can have an intelligent conversation. I'm kidding... :D

And, oh yeah, she has to promise: if she becomes a hiring manager, she won't exclude us from the potential candidate list. I'm not kidding....

[Anonymous]

Sorry, I won't be a hiring manager...therapy is my specialty and you are more than welcome to be my first client :D ?

[SAHF]

No, that honor will be mine! #-o

[jeffus]

I think a 'norm' would be for mom to stay home. An 'alternative' might be for dad to stay home. Another 'alternative' is daycare. Yet another 'alternative' is not to have kids. But if you want the race to continue, we're going to have to have kids - somebody's gotta mow the lawn.

Oppression? Do women really feel oppressed that they 'traditionally' cared for the children? I mean that's where the milk was, at least in the beginning. I think men were 'oppressed' having to hunt down some beast so mom & kid could eat, or grow a crop, or invent indoor plumbing, or build a bridge so communities could be built, or fight a war so our loved ones would be safe.

Were the oppressed ladies out there hunting, laying pipe in raw sewage, falling off bridges or were they home cuddling their babies talking on the phone in a pleasant 72 degree central air conditioned house?

I actually have a lot of fun raising the kid. I feel 'oppressed' around moms that look at me like I'm a loser. I just don't care what they think anymore. I did once and that was an absurd idea.

Oppression seems to me to be a state of mind. If you live your life to please others, you will be severely disappointed.

I hope this was one of those "There are no right or wrong answer questions".....

[jeffus]

Would that session be covered under insurance?

[jeffus]

What? What I say?

It's just my opinion, she's the one looking for an 'A'. I like her though, she feisty.....and well, smart and stuff...

Can't believe everything you read on the internet.....

[Anonymous]

Oh it will be an A and you will all be invited to graduation!!

[Anonymous]

Oops, that's the University of South Florida by the way!

[Anonymous]

MSW program to follow 3 days after graduation in May! To the gentleman who stated he felt oppressed in regard to what others thought of him...expand on that if you don't mind.

[hockeydad]

once upon a time my wife decided to get an MSW. I became her proof reader/editor by default. thanks for the flashback, I'm all dizzy now.
I feel a little weird about the whole oppression but you need to use the word so I will too.
1) from other guys. I just talked to my bro-in-law today and told him I'm staying home with Izzy and taking on a second as daycare. he said "you've just gone over completely to being a women". our relationship it's always been based on friendly ridicule. so he wasn't being serious. but there was something behind it. you see I've never considered raising kids to be a female role. and it always strikes me odd when I come across the reality (even in jest) most people see it different.
'birds of a feather' people tend to hang out with others sharing similar attitudes. therefore the friends I have tend to be pretty open minded when it comes to SAHD. nobody gives me a hard time. with one exception. they don't see it as work. if I hear one more "sit at home watching Oprah and eating bon bons" comment someone is going to get a TPS Icecap Sr. Hasek Heel goalie stick right in the keister. ok maybe it's not that bad - I'll just hack em in the calves.
2) from women - mostly in condescension. isn't that cute - look everyone its a man trying to take care of children. the most annoying episode came when some lady came up to me and izzy and took the blanket from where I had put it on the stroller and moved it where she thought it belonged on izzy. the look on her face - still gets my goat. argh!!!
3) from society - money money money - financial oppresion. living on one salary plus a little extra income from daycaring ain't easy. add to that the fact that women in this society are substantialy less paid and the SAHD family often has less income than a SAHM family.
4) just a little tangent for your topic. males in early childhood education. talk about the greatest bastion of female imperialism on the planet. I think the ratio is 96% to 4% females to males nationwide. now there I can go on and on about oppression or more accurately prejudice. but that is off topic although most SAHD's will deal with it when their kids eventually go to school.
my pen runneth over - hope this helped.

[Anonymous]

You all have been a tremendous help. You have reaffirmed some of my(not societies) preconcieved notions in regard to this topic and have given me new insights. True confessions...I have known many men who were better nurturers than their significant others! Thank you for the info and the laughs! Any more info would be greatly accepted. The project isn't due until the middle of October.

[jeffus]

Hi Ann,

Hope I didn't offend.

Um, as far as feeling oppressed by what others think of me...I'm laying on the couch now:

It all started with my mother right after we bought our daughter home. Pretty Freudian, eh? After 9 months expecting, going through all the stress of birth, reading everything on kids, labor, etc, and telling everyone that I was going to stay home with the kid - she of all people turns to me and says, "Are you sure you want to do this with your life?". I said, "What?".

Before that, I was so excited (read scared-as-hell) about the prospect of SAHD'ing. To have her, of all people, question my/our decision in such a manner was very surprising and somewhat hurtful. I guess I expected unwavering support from my family. This would be one of those 'defining moments' in my life. I knew this Daddy thing was going to be tough. I kind of liked the idea of going against the grain - Dad stays home, mom goes to work. I didn't expect to get blindsided by mom. What, her #1 son, previous pride & joy wasn't good enough to take care of her only grand-daughter? Was that engineering degree (that mom & dad paid for) going on the shelf never to be seen again? I still don't know where that remark came from but it enfuriated me.

This was my first inkling that I had to change my perspective. Meet-ups with other mommies & their babies soon re-inforced that. I expected acceptance whereas I received none. I soon found myself and my daughter ostracized. I was astounded by the lack of support from my mother and society in general (read - other moms, no changing stations, nasty looks).

With this new revelation, I found the best approach was to lower my expectations of society and family. Increase my own sense of self-worth and relevance. Self reliance was called for. This was going to a long, tough climb and I had to ignore the judges and do my personal best.

So that's where I am today. After the tough climb, it is spectacular, sweet revenge watching all the mommies who shunned me & my daughter thus far, squirming in their seats as my daughter consistently outshines their kids performance in every arena - social, physical, mental, vocal. And the real thrill is that I didn't push her at all, she's not over-scheduled, and the two of us have had nothing but fun so far.

In an interesting side note - all of the men in my life: friends, family, colleaques have expressed nothing but support for me. Even my most-grisled uncle said he respected my decision. Dad never said a word about SAHD'ing. I think he was just plain thrilled about a granddaughter and she loves grandpa. And I guess I'm just a little proud that I picked good friends.

I'll get off the couch now....

Hope this was helpful. You raised 4 kids? Mine was a complete terror today. She's coming off a week of constant attention. I'm coming off a week of constant construction. When these 2 paths collide around here it gets a little messy.

[tt3]

Hey, ready for a slight curveball?

What about when your wife doesn't completely respect the you for the path you've both taken?
Layed off and thrust in this position without being able to find more work that would be able to cover day care?

Just thinking out loud...
um, typing in public?... er...

[Weston]

I might be wrong, but I believe that a benefit to the father staying at home to raise the kids is that the mother probably has a more instinctive tendency to want to be around her children than the father.

This idea might come as an insult to some fathers but as much as I love my little boy, I can see this in myself. My wife comes home and all she wants to do is spend time with him, and I don't mind spending a little away time by then. We also go visit her at work a lot, so she's able to spend more time in that way.

I'm willing to bet that if I were the one at work instead of her, that I wouldn't be quite as "desperate" as she is to get home.

Another issue is maternity leave. When we have our 2nd my wife will have eight weeks off from work and I will be home as well.

This set-up (at least for us) seems to be more balanced in the way he gets attention from us.

Anyway, my .02 for what its worth!

[tt3]

perhaps I don't understand the issue tt. The decision to stay at home being a situation of unfortunate career circumstances (layoff, downsizing, termination). The wife now has the bear the brunt of the financial effort and is not supportive of the husband because of it?

I suppose womans liberation means the freedom for a woman to make her own choices. Whether to stay at home, whether to work whether to abort or to have a child... After all it's her body, her mind and her right to do with it as she pleases..... If she wishes to use cocaine, well that's her right, if she wishes to be a prostitute after hours, well that's her right, if she's not willing to stand behind the covenent of marriage, to play a crucial role in maintaining the integrity of a marriage and the security of her child, well, in the interests of broad scale freedom without conscience... it's her right..... I guess it takes all kinds to make the world a diverse place but personally, I'd sooner like to see a more mature and responsible equality.
:shock:

Um... I was just thinking a little resentment that dad gets to stay home with the kid while she has to go to work...

(dang, I should know better than to get into intellectual discussions :oops: )

[floridamcmarion1]

Ann,

Dang, it's nice to see some college students are finally finding this site. Now our wonderful :?: insights and knowledge are making it into the academic scene! :D :shock: :D

In my experiences I have seen some varied reactions to my role as a SAHD, but I also have a different twist on things that most of the other guy here don't that adds to many people's reactions. My wife and I have created our family out of adoption through foster care. As a result, we have a very culturally diverse family. My wife and I are white, my oldest daughter is black/white/hispanic with her daughter also being half Columbian, my oldest son is white/Mexican, my youngest son is African-American and my youngest daughter is Haitian. I get reactions based not only on people's preconceived notions of what a stay at home parent should be (female), but also on their preconceived idea that a family should all have similar skin tones.

These statements come only from my own experiences, so take them as such:

Older men tend to think a SAHD is lazy or can't hold down a "real" job.

Older women think a SAHD is not fulfilling their committment to their family by being the breadwinner ("So do you really think you make a good mom?").

Younger women think one of three things: 1) she wishes her husband would at least change a diaper once in a while 2) she thinks you must be a pervert 3) She thinks you have the toughest job in the world and applauds you for doing it

Younger men think you are either crazy, lazy, lucky or controlled by your wife. Normally they think you are a little of each.


Someone touched on the subject of men in early childhood education. I am actually accredited in Florida as a preschool teacher and have taught in our church preschool. I had my own class last year and this year I am the substitute. The reactions there are even more severe than when people find out I am a SAHD. Parents tend to either think it's the greatest thing or are convinced you must be a pedofile. There is usually not much in between. You are either great or evil incarnate. I had a parent last year insist that her daughter be moved to another class because she refused to have a man as her teacher. This year when I substitute in her class they refuse to leave her. I have passed all the background checks, have passed the interview process, and am even a licensed foster parent through the state, yet they can't get past their preconceived notions that a male teacher must be a pervert.

In my personal opinion I don't give a rat's behind what other people think. It does tick me off sometimes when it becomes a personal attack on me, but I try not to let their ignorance get to me. Bottom line, I am a firm believer that it is beneficial for one parent to stay home with the kids until they are in school, and then to have a parent who is home when the school age kids get home. In this day and age it doesn't have to automatically be the wife who stays home. It's a matter of finances as well as who can better deal with the role as a SAH mom or dad. My wife not only makes far more than I ever would, but she also doesn't have the patience to be a SAHM.

I don't know if I actually answered your question or if I just ranted a bit. :roll: Either way, I just felt the need to say that. :D :D :D

[floridamcmarion1]

Adoption is a great thing, though I advise you to be careful if you try to do it through foster care. We have had 16 kids in our house, and only 4 are permanent. That obviously means we had to say goodbye to 12 kids that we got to know and love. One girl we had for 14 months and thought we were going to get to adopt her. Suddenly the state sent her to live with her mother in a drug rehab with very little warning to us. Since we have no rights as foster parents, we have no idea what has happened to her in the year and a half since she left us. That is equivalent to having your child legally abducted and never knowing if she is dead, alive, miserable, hurt or what. I wouldn't trade my 4 kids for the world (though I would be willing to loan out my 9 y/o right now), but it has been a very rough ride through foster care. Maybe Pennsylvania has a much better system than Florida, though. Florida's Department of Children and Families is known as the worst in the country. Having first hand knowledge of working within the system, I completely agree that it must be the worst. :evil: At least I would hope so, because I would hate to think of anything worse than our system. :twisted:

That said, there are also advantages to adopting within the state system here. Our children that are adopted through foster care are eligable for 4 years of free tuition at any state college or trade school (that includes Florida State University and the University of Florida, which are two elite colleges). They have Medicaid until they are 18 or 23 going to school. Any pre-existing physical or mental problem (including the need for counseling due to abuse or neglect from the biological families) are covered as long as the Medicaid is in force. All adoption related expenses are paid by the state. We get roughly $300 per month until the child turns 18 even though they are legally adopted. Currently there is a large federal tax credit for special needs adoptions (that means minorities, older children, or mental or physical problems). If it is a special needs adoption you don't need to show any actual personal expenses to get the full credit of $10,160. That is how we bought our van earlier this year after adopting our 9 year old.

Our youngest is a private adoption. There is a real joy in knowing that she can not be taken away from us and we don't have to deal with the state system at all with regards to her. The birth mother signed an irrevocable agreement just before we brought our daughter home from the hospital, so we knew when we brought her home that there was no turning back. The problem with private adoptions is the cost issue as well as the time you may have to wait. We got lucky and were instantly matched with a birth mom at our initial consultation, but that is only because we were willing to accept a minority child. We were the only couple our adoption agency had that was willing to accept a minority child, so we got matched instantly. If we were only willing to accept a white child it would have taken us probably close to 2 years and cost us twice as much. As is we have spent over $9,000 just for the adoption costs.

Foster and adoption can make things interesting. I got married at 31, became a father at 33 and a grandfather at 35. I do not even want to think about what happens when I turn 37. :shock: :shock: :shock:

Well Louis, you now probably know more than you ever wanted to about foster and adoption. :) And I didn't even tell you any war stories from fighting the system. :D I could tell those all day............

[jeffus]

My wife comes home and all she wants to do is spend time with him, and I don't mind spending a little away time by then.

For me - this is pretty much like 'punching-out' time. I have no problem 'handing' over the kid and doing my own thing for a while.

[Anonymous]

Hello everyone!

My name is Jessica and I am a senior student attending a high school in Canada (and no, I do not live in an igloo!) I have been researching this topic (SAHDs) for the last few weeks and was extremely excited to find this site - with real stay at home dads telling their stories and opinions about their own personal experiences. I have no questions for you, as I have already collected enough information for my ISU (Independant Study Unit), but would like to thank you all for posting these messages! It has helped me a lot since Canada's societal views are extremely similar to that of the States. I believe Phase II or III of my project may entail an interview with a stay at home dad, so I might be posting another message later on in the month.

I find it just awesome what you fathers have been up to. I believe it is extremely important for fathers to bond with their children, especially daughters. My father has coached me in female hockey for the past 10 years, so through that we have shared a great bond that most daughters rarely find with their dads. It is important you share as much time with them before they start leaving for university as I will be next year, the time does go by faster than you may think! :D

- Jessica

[jeffus]

What a well organized and well written post!...

Best of luck to you at university and it's nice to know that Daddies are appreciated.

Time is not a constant, somehow it seems to accelerate as you get older.

[phreak]

As the new guy on the block around here, I have noticed that people seem to feel the need to console me about being a stay at home dad. That is a type of oppression. The constant "Well, Good for you" said in a tone of "You don't know what your getting yourself into" can be a little oppresive, although most people are genuinely happy that I have the opportunity to be a SAHD, it seems like there is an exclusive club that of people that feel that traditional roles should be filled traditionally. There also is a sort of glaring sideways look from some stay at home moms like we are treading on their turf.


Hope that helps...

[phreak]

As the new guy on the block around here, I have noticed that people seem to feel the need to console me about being a stay at home dad. That is a type of oppression. The constant "Well, Good for you" said in a tone of "You don't know what your getting yourself into" can be a little oppresive, although most people are genuinely happy that I have the opportunity to be a SAHD, it seems like there is an exclusive club that of people that feel that traditional roles should be filled traditionally. There also is a sort of glaring sideways look from some stay at home moms like we are treading on their turf.


Hope that helps...

[Jackson's Dad]

There's an element of that "You don't know what your getting yourself into" attitude that I think people give all new parents. I am sick and tired of visiting family, and getting that tongue-clicking "oh, just you wait" comment.

Jack's started to "walk" - move his feet like he's walking when you hold his hands. We think it's fun and awesome, but all we get are is "oh you young parents, you'll be in trouble soon." What, so should we lock him in chains to make it easier on us? Sheesh!

[Weston]

Thats funny...we get the same comment about the walking thing

[dad305]

There is a few things that can generated the "you don't know what you're getting into" comments, here is a comment:

Placing the little one in one of those walking devices with wheels (don't remember what they are called right now)

Letting the kids sleep with you

Putting glassware and other potentially dangerous stuff away (argument is that they'll never get use to not touching. Yes I know...but I've seen it)

C'mon help me here ...what else?

[Jackson's Dad]

It bugs me because it is such a stupid comment. What's the alternative, leg irons? Of course we'll be in trouble soon, we are parents aren't we?? :wink:

[tt3]

I like to say "now it gets really fun" because it does!
I will freely admit to chuckling a little when someone's first kid gets to that age, though. It really opens up opportunity for chaos! :lol:
Just like parents with older kids chuckle at me... kind of an "oh man, been there!"

[Weston]

Maybe it is being just a little over-sensitive about the comments...but as SAHDs we did choose to do this over a full-time job, and so should have a decent handle on things when they do get interesting.

And as far as various comments.... I haven't gotten one on our 2 indoor dogs yet (I've been expecting someone to mention how dangerous it could be with the little one) I guess the people who know me, know better than to comment on that one.

Other comments... him sucking on his fingers ( that will mess up his teeth)...playing with him by throwing him up in the air and catching him (you should be careful, you might drop him)

I'm sure theres more ...just cant think of any now

[dad305]

Sorry to break this to you J but they do comment...they do...specially those who are allergic to dogs...they just do it so you can't hear them... :-$

[jeffus]

I like to throw the dog up into the air while yelling "Pull!" (skeet-shooting reference). Nobody seems to complain about that..... :D

Dogs can be dangerous. We adopted ours when he was a little older. He needed to be convinced that running the kid over going 40 mph wasn't helping his chances of survival. (We like the kid more than the dog.) We had a long talk and things are better now...

It is interesting to watch this animal that could rip your arm off become a lovable, warm, fuzzy pillow and playmate for your child. I taught her the secret - rub his belly and he's all yours!

[tt3]

We had a long talk and things are better now...


I think I've had that same discussion with our dog, she also understands where she fits in the dynamic.
I put it that way to other non-dog owners before, they like to hear that better.

[Weston]

The dogs have always been a big part of our family. I still consider them our first "children". They have definitely learned to walk lightly around the little guy. Its funny to watch them be so gentle around him, and he can watch them for hours a day as entertainment.

As far as dogs being dangerous around kids....Yep. If your not a responsible dog owner and don't take the time to train your dogs and keep a close eye on their behaviour, then I'm sure it could be dangerous.

[dad305]

We have a Dalmatian. She loves the kids, they are just crazy dogs. She is not inside the house and she gets so happy when the kids go out in the yard that if one is not careful she would run them down.

We've tried the talking thing but I guess that since Dalmatians have a hearing problem (or at least that's the myth) she doesn't get it.

Nicely said...running the kid over going 40 mph wasn't helping his chances of survival

[Weston]

Nice avatar Dad305

[dad305]

Thank you Sir J, but I only deserve credit for the shot. It wouldn't be there without the assistance of our Moderator =D>

BTW did you read my posting about the orange iguana? I really wanted to get your input. Here is the link:
http://www.dadstayshome.com/dadforum/viewtopic.php?p=6771#6771

[hockeydad]

We got the "just wait's" about both the crawling and walking. It always seemed to come from sedentary people. As if they were upset when their kids walked cause parenting required motion.

I always wanted to reply "What I'm really waiting for is for YOU to get up and walk around." I'm too nice though.

Life is so much better now that she crawls and I am excited for the day she walks.

[Jackson's Dad]

Life is so much better now that she crawls and I am excited for the day she walks.

We are planning to hook him up to one of those generators to harness some of his toddling-power. :-)

Our dog, Dexter, is the sweetest animal in existence. The cutest thing is to watch when he brings a toy over to Jackson to try to get him to play. Jackson's still too young, so Dexter just gives us this look "I'm trying!". Melts your heart.

[Stephen Connolly]

I'm new to this site but how do you get from a pseudo-scholarly discussion of paradigm-shifts :?: to cute dog anecdotes :vom: ?

[tt3]

The same way all the early threads somehow ended up talking about either beer or boobies.
;)

[Jackson's Dad]

Welcome to our world, dude.

Speaking of which, gotta go put a pint glass in the freezer so it'll be nice n' frosty for dinner.

[Stephen Connolly]

My pint glasses are lined up in the freezer on stand-by.