'Stand and Think' and 'Dealing' methods of discipline

[benj]

Discipline is a funny thing…you notice it most when it isn’t there. Judging from the replies about my post, there is still a lot of confusion about discipline. We long to have disciplined kids for one simple reason…it makes life go more smoothly.
I agree with TT, giving into kids fails to make life easier. Parents reluctant to set boundaries find that kids just get worse. Whereas if you have a discipline method that works quickly, problems are soon solved and you get on with being happy. Like I said before, my belief is that the purpose of discipline is to ‘teach’ kids to operate happily and easily in the world. I think Louis’s Mum said is best. But here is my lumpy thoughts and techniques.
Without parental ‘firmness’, kids fail to develop inner controls and just keep acting like two year olds even when they are twenty-five. Without inner discipline, a kid’s life is a mess. Rem pointed out that, ‘Kids just don’t know the difference between right and wrong so they are going to do whatever.’ I agree 100%. Furthermore, parents who let children do as they like (as an easy way out) will severely disable them for living in the real world. I know this for a cold, hard, fact and have the nephew to prove it.
A child who’s been taught good, self discipline, on the other hand, ‘learns’ how to negotiate the world and stay out of trouble (and in my eyes really free). So the point I’m pushing up hill is that discipline is about getting along with yourself and with other people. After love, there is nothing more important you can give them than discipline.
Before I can start on the ‘stand and think’ and ‘dealing’ techniques I need to mention what I call ‘softlove’ and ‘hardlove.’ Softlove is what I call all the capacity for tenderness, generosity and the warmth and fuzziness that dwells inside us. As parents we all excel in this field so I need go no further.
(This is the point in the post where you blokes go make yourselves a cuppa tea or grab a beer and sambo since I may make this next simple concept more difficult and longer than necessary).
‘Firmlove.’ A parent says, ‘Mate, I love you, and that’s why I will stop you behaving like this.’ They combine love and firmness. They never hit, they never harm, they never blame. But they are firm. (Muddy I know, but ‘stick’ with me).
By now you’ve finished your beer and may be asking, ‘Benj where in the seven seas is this miraculous method of getting cooperation you promised us?’
‘Firmlove’ rests on two main techniques…the first is ‘stand and think’ and the second is called ‘dealing.’ These methods are used from toddler hood onwards and modified and developed as your kids grows.

[NOTE]: The arrival of naughtiness arrives around one and a half to two years old. Babies can be hard work but they are NOT being naughty, rather they are just trying to let you know their needs. They do NOT need discipline, just lots of understanding. And what parents need is sleep (right aka Dan?).
A baby doesn’t deliberately misbehave…but a toddler is a different matter. Like Jeffus sketched.
Little missy toddler walks over to the fridge and opens the door. Little missy flashes a grin that says, ‘Whatcha gonna do about it?
Jeffus says, ‘No.’
Reaching for the plate of mystery meat, Missy smiles, ‘Oh yeah? Stop me.’
CRASH!
(Clean up, aisle eight).

This is an unconscious message saying, ‘I need some limits, Mum, Dad. Please stop me going berserk’.
It isn’t all pure rebellion (though some of it is). Sometimes a toddler will just find it too hard to handle the demands of day to day life. Sometimes they will just be tired or hungry and best put down for a sleep or given a snack…their mood will soon improve. And yes TT, there will be times when a child melts down and just has to be confronted and do what they are told, because ‘I say so.’ This is truly the age of the firmlove fiesta. But like Hock just mentioned, there are other behaviour modifiers out there that work,…with practice.

[My window of opportunity has just closed….I will finish with the nuts and bolts of the ‘stand and think’ and ‘dealing’ methods tomorrow]. Sorry for such verbosity, but the techniques will be worth the wait.

[Weston]

You get an A+ for verbosity

=D>

Will be patiently awaiting next chapter :D

[tt3]

Man, talk about leaving a guy hangning!
Look forward to more, benj.

[jeffus]

Hate cliff-hangers! Thanks for the honorable mention though. Nice to know someone's reading....

Kids, got to love 'em. I used to be one!

And not to put too fine a point on it - but little missy did her deeds in the middle of the night when no one was watching - dangerous enough, nevermind the cost of food, or running a fridge with the door open all night. This was the transition from crib to toddler bed and she soon learned she could roam free in the wee hours of the night. Don't know where she got the urge to purge the fridge, but it really needed to stop. Ever contemplate the net worth of the food in your fridge? Multiply by 3 and tell me when it stops getting cute.... :D It makes for a great story and it's funny now, but....I said, "Tough, Love, you need to go back to bed....and stay there!" :D

[hockeydad]

I hope our little girl never smashes a plate with raspberry pie on it. Raspberry pie sounds really great right now. uummmm raspberry pie.

[Weston]

hey Benj

Great posts. Will save these for when Alex gets old enough and we need these skills. I'm sure some won't totally agree with your methods, but they seem reasonable and effective to me.

Your posts are a great example of what this forum is all about - helping other fathers in sticky situations. :D

[Jackson's Dad]

Hi Benj - thanks for posting your 5-parter on stand and think. Interesting read. Our little guy still has a long way to go before toddler-hood, but I'll keep this info filed. Where did you get it from?

The spirit of it reminds me a lot of what we learned when we took our puppy in for training. A lot of people use intimidation or hitting to discipline a dog, but instead of "extinguishing" the bad behavior, they mearly cause the dog to avoid doing it in front of you. It's the same idea -- you can't expect the dog to understand what is correct behavior unless you teach them.

For example, a dog who begs for food at the dinner table. If you swat the dog, or just yell at it, all he understands is "the alpha dog is defending his food". So he'll just wait until you aren't around, to have his turn. This is how it is done in packs. Instead, you need to teach him that during dinner, he is expected to lay on the floor (for example), and then praise him and reward him for correct behavior. When he starts to beg again, you don't "discipline", you reinforce the correct behavior (with the appropriate big-dog voice).

Not saying that raising kids and dogs is the same! But interesting how the skills you learn for one can help you with the other.

[benj]

Interesting observation...Yeah, we kind of apply similar methods to our two beagles. No smacking, (although I've thought about trying to make them 'sit and think'. :wink:
I'd be curious to see TT's reply being that he used to train dogs.

[tt3]

There was a guy that had a golden that just wouldn't obey him. He told me how "training" (read; whooping) his dog and that she stopped responding all together. "She won't even sit!" I worked with her for 10, maybe 20 minutes with hotdog pieces rewarding what I wanted her to do and she sat for me. She already knew what I wanted her to do, she just didn't have any incentive to do it.
Goes back to that adage, or cliche` you can catch more flies with honey.

I've trained my two dogs, but only worked at a kennel where they trained, so I've not done it pro...
Did I tell ya about the owner of the place with a bark collar?

Oh yeah, one other. I am the alpha male to the dog, that was established early on. There are just times when they need to listen, and disobeying isn't an option they want to choose....
I digress.

[hockeydad]

woooo nelly benj. got to jump on this SaTaD thing. First off if it works for your kid and you happy day - do as you wish. But it has some serious flaws.

Time out vs. SaTaD. Man the differences are slim. Time out is non-interactive and a little less violent. Those are the only serious distinctions. Here are the similarities: they are physical forms of guidance, age inappriate for early ages, require an outside trigger for release (time for the former and whatever words are the magic words for the latter), both are relatively extreme forms of guidance.

Physical form of guidance: ok so you pick up a child move him to a spot in the room and HOLD him or her while they thrash around. And this is the alternative to spanking? Next time you're angry have someone who is bigger and stronger hold you still no matter what you do and see how that calms you down. yes you might eventually feel so helpless or exhausted you stop. but a kid that learns helplessness is not a behaviorally competent child. Not to mention all the hurt the kid can put on you and him or herself. Benj got to tell you holding a child to that extent is what I consider pulling in the big guns and there better be some serious reason before I do it.

Age inappropriate for real young. First off - thinking and reasoning limitation. So you remove a child from the behavior situation kicking and screaming. Hold him in a new spot with all new stimulus (the wall, feeling of being trapped, parents surrounding him, talking, and anger) and a 1 1/2 -3 year old is supposed to connect the two events in some sort of causal way. Come on. Second - time - attention spans on young kids are limited duration. The chances of his attention being maintaned through that ordeal is small. What you might be witnessing at that age is not corrected behavior but merely forgetting the original behavioral scenario. Not exactly a success.

Exterior trigger. This is a magic word discipline. I get in trouble, I go in corner, I say magic words. Bammo I'm out. Speaking does not equal believing. This is not internalized control this is button pushing.

There we go. I rant and I could keep ranting but I need to chill. Now let me say this technique has some redeamable qualities. It embraces the concept of teaching internal controls of children's behavior. That is key. It engages parents and child in a discourse (albeit a problematic and dictatorial one but a discourse nonetheless). It aims towards creating boundaries. It tries to adapt to different ages.

But it is an extreme form of guidance. Just imagine if someone were to do this with your kid at a school. They would need an IEP, an IBP, a child psychologist, special services staff, a health professional and specialized training in physical restraints. I'm not kidding either. Not exactly what I'd call a good healthy home discipline method.

[benj]

All looks yellow to a jaundiced eye. -Pope. :wink:

[Don-Dad]

Nice comments hockeydad and benj. Glad I'm not the only one who does not totally agree with Benj's method though it does have some very good points. Great discussion and educating for new at home parents.

[tt3]

Hock, you've left out something though... the alternative.
One of my biggest complaints about the education classes that I took was that they were full of the problem, scarce on the solution. Four semesters of what you cannot do, how and why you cannot do it, but nothing about what to do differently. It was very hard to swallow after finishing a bio degree, straight science, when x, then z.
Now its my turn to ramble... I'm not trying to attack, just sayin'.

(The local radio stations morning show has a line that I think is hilarious "I'm not saying, I'm just saying")

Thoughts? Or did I miss it in another post?
Cheers!

[Weston]

I'm confused now. Everyone has very good points on the subject. I'm just glad i've got a while before i have to worry too much about this

and as far as alternatives to these methods.....

Don't know any good ones, but can guess of one bad one...

Two words - Skinner Box :(

[benj]

In fairness to Biddulph, the author, by plucking pieces out of his book to try and share his idea on this forum I would have given a tunnel view of his ideas and methods. I apologize for this and suggest that you peruse through his book to get the proper perspective if this techniques peaks your curiosity. Nevertheless, I saw it as an opportunity to shed light on an alternative to smacking rather than just chucking wood and no water on this important albeit fiery topic.
In the spirit of this forum, let us never shy away from venting or sharing, not matter how distorted the views may appear. For we all have the same interests at heart.

[Remington]

Wow... I just caught up on all this...

I agree with a lot of what has been said. What is interesting is when you are disciplining more than one child for different things. It is hard to discipline to the same level all the time for every child. If you let one person off the hook and the other gets a time-out then your methods are not consistent and the children begin to find the loopholes in your processes of discipline. It gets very tricky.

I think what a parent needs to remember is that no matter how much yout children are pointing out loopholes you ARE the parent. Nothing has to be fair.. Life is not fair. Secondly, you need to be as consistent as you can. Just because you have 3 beers in ya and your toes are warm and fuzzy, doesn't mean its time to let the kids off the hook. This is just setting yourself up for disaster.

Children have to know boundaries and not simply difficult roadblocks that can be outmanuevered.

Also, I think as a parent you can't be afraid to say no. Once you say it move on. Kids will try to keep you on the same subject all day long.

What works well is, "No end of story!!!"

Then I move on. If they ask why I tell them quickly and move on. Too many times I see parents give these huge explanations and they go on and on about how they blah blah blah...

Forget it! "No"

When no doesn't work then I use the hand. This should not be a painful experience. It is not a trip to the woodshed and a production. It is a quick smack and off to bed..

Next time "No" will seem better.

The problem that arises is parents that do this but that is it. Parenting is not just disciplining. A lot of parents think that is their job. It is ONLY one of their jobs. As a parent you need to love your children and hug them and kiss them and make them laugh.

Kids don't understand right from wrong and so you need to teach them. If all you teach them is NO NO NO NO NO then they will learn NO, but they will not learn Love.

The best teacher is one that teaches by example. Children will involuntarily grow up to be like their parents. So if you teach them what is right instead of telling them waht is not right, then the child will understand where the boundaries are and have a more realistic view on right and wrong.

[tt3]

Speaking of fairness, ever notice that the only time something is pointed out as being "not fair" is when its "not fair" in another persons favor? If its "not fair" in a kids favor, that kid is not likely to protest...
I digress.

[Don-Dad]

Ummm, what, please clarify Tony, too many brews for you tonight?

[hockeydad]

tt3 said "Hock, you've left out something though... the alternative."

A fair criticism. I was offering commentary on Benj's method. Mostly cause I was a little concerned that it was just sliding by unchallenged. But I should have given more kudos to him for putting it out there in the first place. It was a concrete theory with real meat and he put it up to be buchered. in the interest of fair play I'll throw some of my ideas out there. I'll try to be brief, but I doubt I'll succeed.

First off I don't have a single theory of discipline. There is no way to encapsulate it in a phrase or name. What I have is some guiding philosophies and a slew of methods and techniques.

1) Behavior is teachable.
2) Discipline - I prefer guidance merely out of habit - is a little like painting. It is about 80% prep work and 20% action.
3) Intervention strategies should be simple and easy to use.
4) Children are part of the process.

1) Behavior is teachable - sounds simple but its not. It can be and needs to be taught like ABC's and 123's which we spend endless time upon. But very little time on behavior.
How do you teach it? Like anything you break it down to simple elements and build up to the greater concept. Let me give an example. The kid with the plate at the refrigerator. He picks up the plate drops it. You tell him to stop and not do that again. What are you really asking. 1) to listen to your words 2) to be able to control his body and his impulses.
to teach listening you could play games with sounds. you can read stories about listening. to teach impulse and body control songs like Freeze, bean bag games etc... so when you have a behavior think about the behavior, break it down and figure out ways to teach what is needed to avoid it. don't get me wrong this won't work at the moment. It is a long term plan. You wouldn't expect your kids to learn the ABC's first time through a set of flash cards.


2) Discipline is 80% prep work and 20% action. This is really what I am all about.

The prep: It goes into a bunch of categories: reasonable expectations, spatial arrangement, preemptive thinking, realistic rules a.k.a boundaries, positive encouragement, and role modeling.

The action: techniques - choices, redirection, direct statements, consequences, "NO" statements and how to use them, physical intervention.

Reasonable expectations. - Kids are not adults. They have very different brain functions and limitations. Parents need to understand those limitations and set reasonable expectations. To understand kids its necessary to understand the psychology of development. Now I'm not talking getting deep into Piaget or memorizing the hierachy of needs. But having a basic understanding of a child's mind. Knowing what they simply can't understand because their thinking has not developed yet. Under expectations also go knowing that a child has limited attention spans, lower physical dexterity, less developed tastes, and a general inexperience with the world.

Let me give you examples: taking a 3 yr old on a 10 mile is an unreasonable expectation, taking a 2 yr old on a 30 minute shopping trip in a grocery store and expecting him to sit still while you shop is an unreasonable expectation.

Spatial arrangement. This primarily refers to the place where your kids spend most of their time. The home. You know how everyone says your life changes when you have a kid. Well we took this to heart. We completely redesigned the interior decor of our house. It is not the house we had before plus the babies stuff; it is a completely redone entity - its now our families house. We moved furniture, threw out things, put furniture in storage. It was tough and took some serious convincing of the wife, but it has already paid off.

1) take out the no's - eliminate as many don't go there's and don't touch that you possibly can eliminate. We moved a lot of no's like the wine rack, bookshelves, cd stack, our big lamp, and the tv into our room. A lot of the rest went into storage in the garage. We put a childproof knob on the doors. Also we did the usual childproof latches on cupboards and socket covers. The kids can easily spend many hours here and not encounter anything they can't do or touch.

2) In the redesign we created 2 large open spaces to play.

3) Toys are located at the children's level. They are easily accessible for both the 5 month and 15 month old. They can easily be put away. No complex drawers or high shelves. They can get toys out and as they get better at putting them away they can with out my assistance.

4) Toys are cycled. Not everything is out at once. This creates a newness to items and also minimizes clean up difficulty. Which when they are both more able to clean up will make a big difference in how willing they are to do it.

5) Traffic. The kids can easily get from one place in the house to another. And parents can get around playing children easily. This is not too important right now but eventually when they start playing more on their own and together this will eliminate a lot of behaviors.

OH MY GOODNESS. Someone please tell me to shut up. I have written ad nauseum and have barely begun. Heck I haven't even touched what I do when all the prep fails and a situation comes up. I won't go on if I'm only writing to myself. So if your interested let me know. If not I'll just keep to myself and go back to making comments about the arrogant Yankees and beer. I think at the least I have proved is that I have a little more then just a littany of complaints to steal a phrase from W. And yes tt3 I did attend some education schooling too (although I was an english major) but most of what they taught there was bunk. This stuff came from what worked on a day to day real world basis.

[Remington]

1) take out the no's - eliminate as many don't go there's and don't touch that you possibly can eliminate. We moved a lot of no's like the wine rack, bookshelves, cd stack, our big lamp, and the tv into our room. A lot of the rest went into storage in the garage. We put a childproof knob on the doors. Also we did the usual childproof latches on cupboards and socket covers. The kids can easily spend many hours here and not encounter anything they can't do or touch.
I absolutely agree! I think of this as cops baiting bad behavior only to bust them. If I don't want my 12 month old to get into something, then move it from the equation.

One of the best methods for children when they do something wrong and you can't eliminate the no, is to say "no" and then eliminate them from the equation. In other words take them out of the situation.

Like anything we build habits. If we can prevent kids from habitually doing the same bad thing over and over again the better. Once we say no, remove them from the situation, or remove it from the situation.

But the less we say no the better.

:D

[tt3]

Awesome Hock, exactly what I was looking for! I am reading, anyway, continue when you can.

One comment about removing no's too. There are a few exceptions. I leave a few things out that I don't really have an attachment to but are still off limits to Tara. This allows me to um, well, train her that there will be some things that she just cannot touch. Makes it a lot easier when we're at someone else's non-kid friendly house. If she were used to having free reign and not told "no touch" she'd not listen when it was instituted elsewhere. (does that make sense?)

Oh, fairness: I was stone cold sober at the time of typing, but tired. Another approach is in order perhaps. If you give Jimmy three scoops and Tommy 2 scoops of ice cream, Tommy will squawk about being unfair, but you can be Jimmy won't. Better?

This is awesome guys, I really dig getting a chance to read your approaches to this aspect of parenting. I also appreciate the good natured responses, nothing personal. Makes this a great community.

[hockeydad]

I agree discipline is a great topic for this forum. I enjoy hearing how others do it even if I don't agree with some. Best way to learn new techniques though and since the baby isn't old enough yet I at least get to talk about it.

What did you mean Remington by "eliminate them from the situation". Do you take the object or the child and how do you pull it off without exacerbating the behavior?

About "NO" - How I use no's - I've tried to reduce no's not only in the house but in my speech. It's hard. I reword things into positive commands. Amazing how much more effective that is. Instead of telling someone not to scream I tell them to talk quietly. Don't run becomes walk etc.... Basically telling them what I want rather than what I don't.

When I pull 'no' out though I use it with authority. Usually it is in response to unsafe actions. I remember one time at work I actually knocked a kid over from the word. He hit me in the back. I knew it was coming sooner or later, he did it to everyone - long story. I turned around and said NO with a deep, loud, authoritative tone. And he fell down from the shock of both the word and how I used it. He never hit me again. And I didn't use any physical redirection whatsoever. The cool thing about not using 'no' often is it becomes a great tool. Not always as severely as above but with varied tone and volume according to the situation.

[benj]

I too focus on using the positive speech aspect. Jumping on the sofa prompts, ‘We sit on sofas; throwing a ball inside the house prompts, ‘We throw balls outside. Kind of an extension of Rem’s view of teaching kids what ‘to do.’

Like Hoc, I found it hard at the beginning, since my first natural impulse used to be, ‘Don’t…. In the early days, I tended to look like an old Japanese movie; my lips would be moving, but no sound. For my brain had to search, find and insert the positive verb phrase. I found years of practice now tend to make it almost second nature (most of the time).

Also, I use a method that Cajun mentioned in an earlier topic on ‘Discipline,’ back in July. I will take away something the kid ‘really’ likes (toy, one-on-one play time, TV time) for half the day. Furthermore, on days (usually Monday after a busy weekend) I found that if my son was growing tired and cranky, that by removing the item that was causing the problem or frustration, for the rest of the day, the situation improved right away. I never went as far as throwing a toy away. And if I did warn him about removing the toy, I always followed through.

I'll finish off with a leaf out of Rem's manual. While my son was playing with his GI Joe, his cousin Phillipa scooted over with her Barbie. I spied my son forcing himself to play like his GI Joe was married to her Barbie doll for five agonizing minutes. Then he slipped away and continued back to the front line where he bunkered down to continue his battle against the axis of evil.

Later, I gave him a big hug and said how proud I was of him for spending five minutes with Pip, even though you didn't enjoy it. It should how you could put other peoples feeling ahead of your own. That's why I love you so much.
A proud parent moment. :D

[Jackson's Dad]

(busily scribbling down notes)

Thanks for the discussion guys. It's good for those of us who ain't there yet to get some advance warning/advice.

[Remington]

What did you mean Remington by "eliminate them from the situation". Do you take the object or the child and how do you pull it off without exacerbating the behavior?
Good question. This is a parenting call. Of course if you are in the supermarket it becomes difficult. If your child picks up a bag of candy and you say "no sweetie, not today." and then they throw themselves on the floor and scream and hollar and make a huge scene. The best thing to do is remove the child from the situation. So you will need to pick the child up and remove them from the store.

There are some problems with this though if not done properly. First, the child will learn that if they want to go home all they need to do is throw a fit and off to the car they go. The punishment happens as soon as you get home. Too many times the parent relaxes on the way home and does not carry out any form of punishment. The reason is the parent most likely disciplines based on "emotion" and not on "situation".

When you get home you firmly send them to their room and tell them what they did was wrong and unacceptable, therefore the consequence is punishment. Each child may be different but some you may not want to take them to the supermarket for a month. Others will learn the lesson immediately.

Another problem that arises is the child prevented you from doing a daily chore that you needed to get done. Unfortunately that is part of parenting and you have to understand it isn't easy. I have left the supermarket only on 2 ocassions. Today my children are great helpers at the store and only ask me a few times for candy or something they want. And sometimes I reward them for being good. Other times I say "no" and there is no begging or anything.

I am a lot firmer with my children than most people. I am not mean, just firm. I am honest with my kids too. Some parents feel it is inappropriate to discuss finances with the kids. "It is none of their business." The kids need to learn the value of money. The earlier the better. This way when the child is 16 and you go away for the evening and you give them a $20 bill to get some dinner they will understand its value. Most kids do not! My 4 1/2 year old is starting to learn that daddy needs money to get stuff at the store. She will ask for something and I will say "sorry honey, but I don't have enough money for that" and she says ok.

When you are at home and the child is too young to discipline then remove the object if you can. But there are times when you can't so a distraction will work better.

If you have to take something away, replace it with a toy they can play with. It is like the gas and the clutch. You give and as they take you slowly take the thing away.

As they get older and approach 1 years and they go to touch the buttons on the TV, simply saying "no" won't work BUT you can say "no" 5 times real firmly and remove them from the TV. Then let them go. If they go back, repeat the same thing. It may get tiring but it is a learning process. IF they are doing it 15 times in a row I wouldn't continue on. It is just a waste of time. I would turn the TV off, or take the child into another room to play.

Spanking a 1 year old child is not really something I would say is effective.

After 2 years old seems roughly when spanking can become effective.

If you have more than one child, spending a lot of time on the older child will be beneficial because most (not all) younfer siblings follow in their older sibling's footsteps. If you can teach and discipline your older child the others will be easier.