The Winter of our Discontent

[sao95]

"When the fair gold morning of april stirred Mary Hawley awake, she turned over to her husband and saw him, little fingers pulling a frong mouth at her."

And we're off!


..

[Don-Dad]

Since you did not respond and started a new thread, I created a new section :sleepy:

[sao95]

that workschugchug:

[North Country Dad]

I read the first 30 pages last night. Ethan is an interesting guy -- fun-loving and quick-witted one moment, and bitter and quick-tempered the next. You can tell he's ready to explode. The post-war setting, where prosperity and opportunity are supposed to be prevalant, is ironic for Ethan, a man with a rich family history who has somehow lost his store and now works for the new foreign owner.

The foreshadowing is strong in Ethan's conversations with the two men from the bank -- it seems clear that Ethan will once again take a risk, this time with his wife's inheritance.

Steinbeck understands "Dad-hood"! O:)
When is he alone, when can he be alone? Customers in the daytime, wife and kiddies in the evening; wife at night, customers in the daytime, wife and kiddies in the evening. "Bathroom -- that's when," Ethan said loudly...

...And the reality of dreams deferred (http://www.cswnet.com/~menamc/langston.htm)...
"Men don't get knocked out...What kills them is erosion; they get nudged into failure. They get slowly scared."

...And the fascination with tight sweaters...
Margie Young-Hunt came in, pert-breasted in a salmon sweater. Her tweed skirt clung lovingly in against her thighs and tucked up under her proud fanny...

[sao95]

bad time to start a new book around Christmas, we've been hitting all the relatives get togethers. If you guys are finding anytime to read post on what your thoughts are as you go :)

[jeffus]

This one's gonna be slow-going for a spell......

Lot's of stuff going on - ya know?!

[sao95]

just about done with this, would be done but left it at the mil's :roll: I'm not sure where you guys are and don't want to say anything to spoil it for ya. So I'll randomly start a conversation, what do you think of Margie Young Hunt?

[North Country Dad]

I've read a few more chapters. Thematically, the book is rather transparent -- honesty, American values (the ideal v. the reality) are coming up quickly and strongly.

Mary's belief in Margie's fortune-telling is sad. She puts down her husband and seems only concerned with keeping up with the Joneses, so much so that she clings to Margie's friendship. I have a feeling Margie is going to play a major role here.

[jeffus]

Easy there! We're still opening toys over here! The house is a wreck. And wifey's busy making the company's #'s fit for the year-end close (ur - we no see her til next year).

My copy's good till the 11th, and school starts again on the 2nd.

[jeffus]

Mary's belief in Margie's fortune-telling is sad. She puts down her husband and seems only concerned with keeping up with the Joneses....

My first impression is that she's been listening to Ethan whine long enough and she's just telling him to shut-up already! It seems like they've been thru a lot together and she's been patient and steadfast. More like "OK - you had it rough! Now, *GET OVER IT! & move on...".

*I'd like to find your inner child and kick it's little ass! Get over it! Get over it! - Eagles, "Get over it", Hell Freezes Over

I'll add that the shop owner Mauritus? echoed that sentiment as well. When Ethan started ranting about his family's 200 year heritage & he responds with his 3000 year geneology. Kinda like - "Yeah? What's your point?". You're not from around here! Well, 200 years ago - neither were you! Oops!

The banker dude also offered his condolensces on a failed economic empire but also offered advice and a chance to regain some of his former glory. It might be a slow path, frought with risk, but the long-term prospects looked bright. (Looking back on postwar america - it was a gravy train!)

So I'm seeing a highly educated man (ironically, provided by his forebears) with choices laid out clearly in front of him. I'm pretty sure which way he's going to go. But I'm thinking he's not going to use that education to set himself free....

just guessing at this point....:)

[sao95]

alright, I'll be done with this tonight. One aspect of this book that really interests me is how Ethan keeps saying, paraphrasing, "you only have to do it once and then you can go beck to how you were". He uses the war as an example and the obvious conflict with that reasoning is he kills again. Another facet of this is can a man ever go against his own nature, Emerson didn't think so, so who is Ethan Hawley, the killer, or the sensitive man making mouse faces to his wife, can both co-exist?

[sao95]

okay I guess you guys haven't gotten that far yet. :lol: Throw something out, where are ya, read anything that got ya to thinking or wondering?

[jeffus]

We're just getting ready for dinner with Maggie...

[sao95]

how'd dinner go?

[jeffus]

Easter mass....

Getting there. Slow going this time. I've got a cold too, sleeping a lot. No work work. Enjoying naps. I've got till the 11th to return the book.

[North Country Dad]

I just renewed the book at the library today. I've read more and have some notes to share, but the reading is going slowly.

[jeffus]

July 1st...We're getting there.

[jeffus]

I've finished it. Returned it to the library...

I must have missed something...:huh:.

[sao95]

didn't like it you mean? missed what? Now I'm confused :confused:

[jeffus]

I think I didn't like it. :roll:

[sao95]

oh come on Jeff, throw me a bone, at least say why you didn't like it. It's kinda a dark book in a way, which isn't everyone's cup of tea and i understand that.
What about the parenting questions. Ethan living one way, acting one way, and then getting righteous when his son does the same. Also the fact that he seems to do everything he does to get the wife and kids off his back. How far would you go for your kids?

[jeffus]

What am I supposed to like about it!?

He turns in Marullo, kills his best friend (as near as I can tell) for a shady real-estate deal, sells the town council up the river, and walks away on top of the world. Turns on everyone in his life. I'm not too comfortable with that story.

His son cheats and get caught. He's upset.

Daughter turns son in. He turns Marullo in. Morphie would've turned him in if he robbed the bank. Who polices who?! Where does morality start and end.....who's qualified to make that judgement? Does that judgement change with the passage of time, skill, or experience...

And was the whole thing orchestrated by Margie Young-Hunt? I'd say yes! So was it Ethan's plan or was he manipulated? How Danny feeling - manipulated or dead...who's feeding on who.....

Just throwing it out there.....:-\"

I liked him better when he was poor.

Or, as I gather as I write this, that was the point! Doh!

[sao95]

I like it because it poses a question and doesn't give the answer, actually it poses an endless amount of questions if you follow the first to the second and so on and so on.
A slight correction, Ethan didn't have anything to do with the town council, that was Baker and his cohorts doing. An interesting facet of that was the conversation they had in the bank, Baker asks him directly about Danny and Marullo and he basically answers him. Baker however took to the hills over the council's woe's, then crept back into town after it was over. Does Ethan get any credit for facing his own immoral acts? Compared to Baker who sets things in motion and pretends he did nothing.
I like the book though because I believe it's true. While the situations given may be extreme, I think those business men who are ahead have trampled someone on their way up, and it's interesting when Ethan thinks (paraphrasing) "it's only wrong when you get caught", he's talking about socially, as an American culture. If the CEO of Enron hadn't gotten caught he'd be a rich sob going to the golf course everyday while other business men looked at him and said "wow, now he's a business man".
It also to some extent asks "can a man get ahead while holding on to his own sets of morals, does a man have to go against what he believes in?"
And why is the War brought up, I think Steinbeck uses it to show the reader how skewed their own perceptions and possibly morals may be, while we condemn Ethan for what he does to Danny, we don't think like that concerning the men he killed in the war, instead he was a hero.
Margie Young Hunt, yes she somewhat started it all, but Mary was more the culprit, after all Margie simply told Mary what Mary wanted to hear most. Good gentle Mary, does nothing wrong, except she is willing to trade her husbands soul for the money, she never asks what he is doing, she doesn't care, he's giving everything he holds dear, his values, while she sleeps peacefully. I think she was more responsible than Margie Young Hunt.
There are so many things you can dissect in this book and turn over in your hand, that's why I love this book.

[sao95]

Danny wasn't manipulated, he knew what Ethan wanted, and his reply was "here, take it, now live with yourself", the worst thing he could have done to Ethan he did.
Where does morality start and end
That sums it all up pretty well. The question of all questions.
I do like the ending as well, what saves him is his talisman, and the thought of his kids traveling the same path as him if he isn't there to deter them, "so another light won't go out".

[jeffus]

Perhaps I need to reflect further.....I think I stopped liking Ethan after he decided to rob the bank and just couldn't get behind him after that. ANd it was pretty busy during the holidays so I got thru this in fits and starts.....

[sao95]

I can't say if I ever liked or disliked Ethan. I didn't read it with that in mind.

[sao95]

NCD you still making your way through this?

[North Country Dad]

NCD you still making your way through this?

I have to admit that the book was due back today and I didn't renew it. I got about 1/2 way through, and I really really tried to like it, but I just couldn't get into it. I loved other Steinbeck books, but this one for some reason didn't do it for me. Not sure why...

I enjoyed the story -- good-hearted family guy, trying to keep up w/ the Joneses while not giving a fuck about them. Trying to make sense of a messed-up situation. I just didn't like the writing. Seemed like he was kind of preaching -- like Steinbeck was trying to make a point and it superceded the story itself. I don't know.

Sorry, man! But thanks for putting it out there and encouraging the read. What's next, boys? How about a story?

[jeffus]

OK, I've reflected a little further.....

Published in 1961, so it's 47 years old. So I guess the 'business ethics' pondered in the book is either prescient or timeless. I lean toward timeless.

The comment from Morphy about how everything's regulated at the lower levels of the bank, but if you're president - anything goes.

Along the same lines, average citizens are policed, but if you're on the town council - anything goes.

Golden Rule type of stuff - he who has the gold, makes the rules...

Interesting that Steinbeck would invoke the Federal & State Governments as a 'higher authority' (ie.: Immigration for Marullo and State Grand Jury for the town council).

From historically low approval ratings about government today, it rings of irony...

Now I'm starting to see the layers of dirty pool water....:ball: